Alright so after my light rant yesterday... my 'light'... 2000 word rant on how we shouldn't change things based on the market cycle... there were actually quite a few points I missed and also many good comments were made in the wake of the discussion.
For starters I take extreme offense (not really) to everyone that took this opportunity to cry about how the witnesses control everything and how they lord over us like plebs and how everything is centralized and fucked. I saw a comment earlier today that was like, "We should be having town-hall meetings and discussing these things in a public forum." Great idea, bruv. What in the actual fuck do you think is happening right now? lol. Cut the shit: you're not a victim.
Voting with our money.
On Hive, setting interest rates is a political debate. Which is nice when you think about it. Who sets the interest rates at the FED? Who controls that? I mean technically it's a private bank so... in all likelihood we don't even know how many powerful people can pull strings in that direction. Certainly the American people get zero say in the matter. Hive is a huge step up from that on a political level, so to call it an oligarchy is standing on shaky ground at best. I can personally guarantee everyone on this network that my voice has been heard many times, and sometimes is even acted upon, which is pretty cool when you think about it. Everyone has their part to play.
Voting with our money.
This is a political discussion, and DPOS is very much a new age digital version of what we would call a republic. We elect representatives with our votes and those representatives are supposed to 'represent' our interests on the political matters we find important.
So yeah if setting the interest rate to a certain level is really important you could go around telling people to vote this or that witness based on what rate they are signaling, but the thing about republics is that they are a comingled bag. Like I would never remove my witness vote for Deathwing over something as trivial as the interest rate on the savings account. That is below my line. There are too many more important things to consider when voting for block producers to get hung up on trifles.
With regards to HBD
Starting at the beginning.
| APR | Witness Count |
|---|---|
| 20% | 12 |
| 19% | 1 |
| 15% | 4 |
| 12% | 2 |
| 7% | 1 |
So we can see that 20% is still the OVERWHELMING majority.
So when I see people commenting that Hive is this abysmal dictatorship because one witnesses gave a justification for signaling a lower number it's just like wow I guess this is what you get when you throw down with a bunch of anarchists, libertarians, and conspiracy theorists. Funny to think that anarchists have a strong political compass. Want to make an omelette gotta break a few eggs I guess.
To say that Hive is not "decentralized" because 20 elected representatives are making the decisions is... pretty much absurd. Would you rather be a Bitcoiner? They are super decentralized. In fact they are so decentralized that they don't even get to have a governance structure at all. We can see how that's going in real time.
Even 7% is pretty high.
If we compare these numbers to what you could get from a legacy bank account or even the bond market these are wildly high yields: all of them. Compared to yields offered by crypto they are pretty standard, but we also have to remember that crypto doesn't know what it's doing and plenty of DEFI projects crashed themselves to zero because of their own yields. That wouldn't happen on Hive for several reasons (haircut) but obviously we want to thrive, not keep barely scraping by the skin of our teeth.
19%... nice.
Shoutout to @gtg for the most reasonable interest rate signal of all our witnesses. 19% implies so many things. It's like hey let's not really change it but let's test it a bit, see what happens. 19% breaks the unit bias of the nice round number of 20%, which could have a psychological affect on the market. It would be good to know if that was a thing. Also drastically just changing the rate makes us look like we have paper hands. Can't have that.
The Federal Reserve moves rates less than 1%, sometimes a quarter of a percent, every 6 weeks or whatever at a maximum. They know how to not make waves, and we should take a lesson from the entities who have been doing this stuff for over a hundred years. There's no reason to make the same mistakes as the fossils that came before us.
15%
It should also be noted that Deathwing changed his from 12% to 15% in the wake of all this discussion, so again making the claim that users are powerless on Hive is totally ridiculous and simply not based in reality. Also a lot of people have commented on the fact that Blocktrades is signaling 12%, but none of these people seem to realize that Blocktrades never stopped signaling 12%. He's been at 12% ever since we changed it to 20% in April 2022. That is certainly not wishy-washy behavior.
Charts by @dalz
HBD holders are getting a free lunch
During a bear market people start to panic. Just like a corporation everyone is trying to come up with ways to tighten the belt and save money. The idea here is that HBD holders aren't taking any risk but they are getting a pretty hefty reward. In fact a flat 20% is better than investing in the stock market, because while you might make 20%-25% on AVERAGE in the stock market over time HBD is stable and the 20% is guaranteed no matter when you enter or exit the market.
This is seen as unfair in the eyes of HP holders, who get less yield than 20% and are subjected to the wild volatility of the Hive governance token. Of course nobody complains when Hive goes x10 and they're sitting pretty, but in the exact opposite scenario, IE now, all of a sudden it's a problem. We need to kick those freeloaders to the curb, dagnabbit!
Let me be one of many to say that this is the completely incorrect mindset.
It is rooted in scarcity and the old ways of doing things.
Go ask @taskmaster4450 what he thinks about the situation. He's quite well versed in the complexities of economics and banking. The first question he's going to ask you is deceptively important:
How much growth do you expect HBD to get year over year?
Supply & Demand
Do we really expect that HBD growth is going to be less than 20% a year? I mean... really think about it... as far as I can tell it is the best algo stable coin on the market. Not only did it just survive a bear market, but it survived a bear market without even breaking the peg below 95 cents and we were at 20% yields the entire time. Considering the history of HBD/SBD this is a huge milestone for us and nobody seems to be giving it any credit. Liquidity on the internal market continues to increase. Everything about HBD is impressive right now.
If the target growth rate for HBD is 20% a year then we should automatically be printing at least 20% a year to offset the growth with new money coming into the system. That is a net-zero situation, meaning that because the demand for HBD has increased by 20% it doesn't matter that we printed 20% more. Zero Hive was minted as collateral in this situation. Zero Hive was dumped on the market. We basically got to print money out of thin air for free with zero downside. This is a huge variable that many people seem to be completely dismissing as vapor.
Personally I think that HBD will grow faster than 20% a year in this environment because crypto is bonkers. Do I think yield should be even higher than 20%? Hm, not yet, and considering that HBD can be minted by burning Hive we can easily make up for surplus growth-rates in that manner, which has shown the ability to make Hive go fully deflationary (which isn't something I think is good but other people love it, especially the people who think we should lower HBD yields, which heavily implies that some of the logic being employed here is contrary to itself).
Inflation
It's no secret that the dollar loses some amount of value every year. This loss of value also offsets Hive's debt and allows us to mint more HBD if we want to. Some argue that inflation is very high right now. I don't, but it's certainly a number higher than 2%. If you think inflation is high then you should be more willing to print HBD to offset this loss of value and keep HBD even more stable than the dollar it's pegged to.
Marketing
Many have pointed out that we did a very poor job of marketing 20% yields to the outside world, especially in the face of UST crashing to zero. As an extreme introvert I don't put too much stock into marketing of this nature, and I think we should be going viral from merit and word of mouth type stuff, but still it's a valid point that has been made. It seems a bit hypocritical to jack up yields to 20%, do a very poor job of advertising, and then lower it under the premise that, "I guess that experiment didn't work." "Chalk it up to bad luck I guess."
There's a very real possibility that 20% yields on HBD have prevented Hive from absolutely cratering back to 10 cents like it usually does during the bear market. No one seems to consider this. Consider it.
Doing the maths
Because most people completely ignore the critical variables I've explained above their math on HBD ends up being completely wrong. For starters people are like 20% is too high: that's unsustainable because 20%: and 20% is 20%. I have pointed out many times that the debt ratio on which HBD is founded and collateralized upon is less than 10%, and thus the actual cost to the Hive network is currently less than 2% of our total market cap a year.
Math that is even less considered:
So even if someone gets the above bit correct they'll end up coming to the conclusion that keeping HBD at 20% yields is going to cost the network between one and two million dollars a year at this level. I've already explained why this is wrong: as it assumes that 100% of all yield gets dumped on the market and that HBD has zero percent growth year over year. Oops! Yeah that's what happens when we try to calculate these things in a bubble. Wrong answer is wrong. Try again.
The real threat is the bull market.
Or rather the real threat is the debt ratio. The current debt ratio for HBD is under 10%, and is not cause for alarm. Ironically it would not be surprising for the 'death'-ratio to go up if we lowered yields at this time. Imagine if the lower yield caused HBD to be dumped on the market; the peg breaks to the downside and a million dollars worth of Hive gets minted and dumped onto the market.
It's no secret that Hive has low liquidity.
In the situation above we might only liquidate 10% of Hive's HBD debt but the spot price of Hive ends up cratering 50% or more, not only from the million dollars that just got dumped, but also from the speculators who can see it all coming three days in advance. That's the easiest short in the world. Get wrecked. So it's possible that lowering the rate at this time could actually jack up our debt ratio by x2 and put us into an even more dangerous position.
The real threat is the bull market.
The actual problem Hive needs to lookout for is exactly what happened to Terra Luna and the UST derivative. The stable coin gains massive adoption because of the juicy 20% static yield, and this creates an unsustainable flywheel that jacks up the value of the governance token like x100 on low liquidity (from Hive being bought and burned) that will eventually be shorted into the dirt with an epic squeeze.
Basically if we are in a bull market and the debt ratio goes up while Hive is mooning: that's a very VERY bad sign, and we should immediately move to reduce yield to HBD to mitigate any potential leverage within the system. We can think of this as the network "taking gains" during a bull market and making sure we don't get wrecked during the downswing of the market cycle.
One final maths
Say you're still convinced that 12% yield on HBD is the way to go. Did you actually do the math to calculate how much money that saves over time? Or was that conclusion reached just because it "sounded right"?
If we are paying interest on 8M HBD then 8% of that is only $640k. And even then a year has to pass for that amount to be "saved". Can you really guarantee me that HBD can't gain $640k in demand over the next year? Of course not. It would be shocking if we didn't meet that target. 20% yields are much more enticing than 12%. I can almost guarantee that holding our ground here and not capitulating will create the confidence needed to get that level of extra adoption. Again, the debt-ratio dictates all of this, and the debt-ratio is small right now meaning we can get away with a lot for very little implied risk.
Manipulating rates to force money on and off the chain.
Hive is a very unique network in that we can manipulate interest rates in very beneficial ways. Lowering rates will push money off of the platform and force users to find another stable-coin alternative (or maybe Bitcoin), while increasing rates pushes money onto the platform and gives us a boost. Of course we've never actually attempted to flex our power in this manner, but perhaps one day we'll understand how it can be done and what the numbers need to be to achieve these goals.
It would be highly useful to be able to incentivize money off the platform and 'force' users to hold that value outside the system during a bull market. Why? Because it spring-loads our ability to bring that money back into the system when we need it most. Many will whine, "But we need that money now!" Yeah well, we can't have it now because we never did the thing. It's only possible if we take the gains off the table during the bull market, which we did not do.
To be fair this entire system was put into place and officially tested at the tail end of the bull market (or rather the beginning of the bear) so we never really had the opportunity to pull these moves in the first place. These are definitely tactics we should consider making during the next cycle.
If anyone recommends we INCREASE yield to HBD during the bull market because "we can afford it" I highly recommend this person be ignored. This is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing, just like we shouldn't reduce yield now because "we can't afford it". That logic is wrong: we should be doing exactly the opposite: printing money during a recession and tightening during the good times to rebalance. This is basic economics 101 type stuff.
However anyone can see that printing money during the recession is easy. The hard part is convincing people to stop being greedy and dial it back during the bull market and play it safe. 99% of the time this is where the error gets made, and then it leaves people scrambling wondering how everything went wrong during the bear. The concept that we need to make number go down during the bull will be completely foreign to the general population. The average person never gets smarter: count on it.
Conclusion
I probably forgot to say some things but this silly post is already way too long. At the end of the day manipulating interest rates on Hive is a powerful tool and we very much have no idea how to actually use it because we have zero experience with this newfound power. We need to be making small calculated moves and monitor the outcome very carefully. @gtg has the right idea signaling 19%. Diamond hands.
Giving yield to HBD holders using Hive collateral should not be considered freeloading during a bear market. In fact if we want number to go up during the bear we need to increase yields on HBD to make it even more attractive with higher demand. Just like injecting a stimulant or a steroid into a person to give them a boost of performance in the short term, the bad effects of printing money only happen long after the money has been printed. These moves need to be planned a year or more in advance to actually work the way we want them to. Where will Hive be in a year?
The ultimate variables to consider for HBD:
- What is the growth-rate target?
- What is the debt-ratio?
- What is the supply vs demand ratio?
- How much volatility does the system have in a given market cycle?
- How much collateral does it take to backstop the system?
- How much leverage is masked by low-liquid spot markets?
- How much purchasing power is USD losing per year?
- What is the value of an unchanging stable yield that users can count on during uncertain times?
- How much will lowering yield lower demand in the short-term?
- How long will it take for lower supply to actually materialize?
See? So simple. lol
I keep forgetting to mention that I have ZERO HBD sitting in the savings account, so higher yields do not benefit me personally in the slightest. All these arguments are being made with the network's best interests in mind.
from the outside looking in , 20% seems to be a ridiculous rate to expect, any saver at any time would be over the moon to lock in 10% interest rate. Risk cannot be eliminated it just goes somewhere else , 20% signals to me that there is risk hiding somewhere in the system and would make me hesitant to park my money
The risk is not hidden, once you know where to look, the haircut rule shout be easy to understand: If the debt ratio grows too high, you are never going to get $1 of HIVE if you convert (and noone is going to buy for $1 on the market).
I believe you are misunderstanding the haircut rule.
That's all well and good but anyone can see we've been at 20% for over a year during the entire bear market. If it was going to collapse it would have done so already. Leaving it at 20% for even longer just proves that it's even more stable than we even thought to begin with. All the red-flag metrics are telling us we are still very much in the clear. Again the whole, "We should change it because that 'sounds right' is not valid in my opinion."
Now the real question is why don't you have at least some HBD in savings?
Yours is the rant I like reading the most. It has it all, criticism, information (about how the inflation works) and most important, reality.
The interest rate is a big thing, but also there are way more important stuff to focus on.
Also, thanks for the work of compiling the information about the amount of witnesses voting for what interest rate.
It is not as if the rate is already down, it is a discussion in progress.
Would love to actually see more witnesses sharing their ideas and replying to users, although it is understandable that many of them (not all, some I don't ever see doing stuff) have more important stuff to focus on, like literally developing the Hive blockchain, the core of it all, or providing infrastructure or services, all of which gets much better results than changing the interest rate
I personally regret placing it at 20% to begin with, and we've been signaling 15% for about 9 months or so by now. Anything over 10% is still great in my opinion, and while I didn't take advantage of HBD aside from throwing some post rewards I made the past 6 months towards it, I'd definitely keep doing the same at 10% too, even at lower based on where the rest of the markets are at (if I'm taking profit on Hive or another coin).
That said I'm not entirely sure if these percentages are what's "right", so while we haven't changed our 15% in forever I've been reading a lot of discussions to check what other people think. There's been some good talks about it, ignoring the "witnesses don't want hive to grow cause they want all the power" idiocy, and while it hasn't made me change my mind about 15% yet it has surely made me reconsider lowering it and as you point out in this post to lower it a lot more in case we start seeing a reversal in the general crypto markets.
Ha yeah I feel that I was pretty skeptical when we moved it to 20%.
And then when UST collapsed I was like shocked that we kept it at 20%.
But now with the price of Hive basically at local lows I'm almost certain that lowering it at the moment is absolutely the worst timing possible. Of course I'm actually kind of curious to see if I'm right so if it does get lowered I get to make a fun little gamble to that affect and gloat about being right if I was.
time to put another lowball buy order incase of a sneak fat finger?
lol i forgot about that
https://peakd.com/@edicted/acidyo-gave-me-2500-steem
Jan 2019 wtf
Gtg is winding it down slowly to 15% or 12% i think. He wont remain at 19%.
But thats still a smarter move since the market can adjust slowly if Hbd depegs and Hive gets dumped.
Blocktrades has set it to 12% months ago. One of the biggest accounts on Hive and yet its not even close now to his set percentage. That is what decentralization is. No one account controls, what is a major decision for the system - HBD.
It would be really interesting to see the rate set at a level that only 1 witness is signaling.
Some people got sick of talking about it but I actully found it enjoyable, learned a lot and it showed a huge promise compared to how things would go down and change before this. There's been a lot of talks, feedback, points of views etc and I think that's super powerful in itself and that in itself brings me more hope in hive than any APR change ever would.
There's no one fit all answer here. Should we push hard on marketing 20% APR? (I've seen a majority on socials when it does get pushed this way that it's a scam) and honestly if I was on the outside looking in a 20% APR does throw up a lot of questions and red flags.
The other point is that an APR of 8% should be plenty to get people attracted to it. People stack in 4% yields or lower right now in DeFi and other cryptos like ETH. so offering a 12% higher yield at least to me doesn't bring the demand it should compared to just offering up 8% I think everyone got a little too jump skyrocketing it to 20%.
The question is, if any technical or economic risks emerged as a result of continuous 20% APR. I don't see any. I agree with your assessment that when Hive price isn't moving upwards for a while it may seem as though HP isn't earning as much HBD. This may imply some kind of competition. However, regardless the ROI optics Strong Hive and HBD only benefit each other.
Given that there is no evidence of any imminent risk to the chain, community, or economics decreasing the APR wouldn't be a good idea. Because this will result in break in consistency, and creates uncertainty in HBD as savings investment.
I do believe 20% APR eventually would produce its results, but not until after next bitcoin ATH when profit takers look for stablecoin options.
GTG has set a target to gradually lower APR to 10%. That means 19% is only temporary.
But why should we be sitting and waiting with fingers crossed for forces beyond our control to maybe bring some people in? It's no wonder nobody has taken advantage of the 20% because you can't even google it. Literally nobody know about it.
Hell, googling 'Hive blockchain' brings up some OTHER Hive, with THIS hive logo combined:
Let alone the fact not even the slightest utterance of 20% APR. If you add that to the search, you only get blogs questioning the viability of it. Fab lol.
Whose responsibility even is it to let it be known to the world? Nobody's? But at the same time I keep hearing the idea that 20% was meant as a promotional deal...
There is less mutual exclusion than you seem to imply. Yes, Hive business grows when people post more transactions. And the fat sleeping accounts are just the price you have to account with for that. We are really bad at marketing but that's not a good reason to give up on the few good ideas that have been implemented.
I made this comment on your other post, but wanted to add it here as well, since I saw the other post first, but this one is more recent.
I haven't been around as much, so I didn't know this conversation was happening, but I did expect it.
Since my job is time consuming and Bear Market Hive is depressing and boring, I haven't spent as much time around as I have in past bear seasons. Blame it on my entire life changing last year and having too much to handle.
In anycase, my plan was to power down half of my stake and put it in HBD since I haven't been as active and I want to avoid getting out of Hive entirely.
However, seeing this debate, I'm going to stop buy HBD until the argument wanes. Mind you though, I don't find liquid Hive to be a good holding and I am not sure I will not convert it to something else.
Great discussion, still catching up.
Thanks for the comment I know you have a lot on your plate.
You should stack the HBD and not worry about this argument.
The debt ratio is in an extremely safe position and even if yields get reduced the timelock on savings accounts is only 3 days. Liquidity on the internal market is good enough these days so that slippage should be fine in both directions.
Honestly though I know how much you like the Bitcorns I can't help but think that's the way to go at this point.
We need what is best for Hive long term. We need more adoption and development. The hardest part is adoption without new users and investment pice appreciation won't happen. Without price appreciation the user base will shrink and then development slows. I hate to say it, but price matters and if there is not a return on capital people are short sighted and move on. I don't know what the right rate is, but I actually fall on the side of reducing it from 20%. My thought process is this forces more decisions on what to do with your Hive/HBD. It also reduced the 'scam' factor. Perception is reality and when we engage with people outside of the Hive ecosystem 20% actual scares people even if we know it's perfectly acceptable and healthy with our tokenomics. I would like to see 8-13% which would be better than traditional assets and on the upper end of most large projects offerings.
And when the price of Hive crashes because we think we can massively change interest rates all at once without even testing it? What will we say then? Oops? High yield on HBD is good for Hive price. Like I said before there's a good chance Hive would be back at 2020 prices 10-15 cents without this yield.
Hive and the world in general is lacking in discussion which results in centralized control. We need discussion forums. Discord is where most projects here discuss their projects and that is chaotic without separate conversations and instead all conversations happening together in real time scrolling chats making it much harder to have a conversation. We need separate but intertwined groups to discuss Hive,HBD,HP,all the games,apps, development, etc with chat and cross-posting to keep everything connected so that everyone has a equal chance to participate in the discussion and decision making process.
Okay cool, but why should everyone participate in the decision-making process?
Even in a democracy only registered voters can vote, and nobody actually gets to decide anything except for the people that actually get elected.
This idea that everyone should have their voice heard because that's the 'fair' way of doing it is absurd. Who's opinion matters more? Someone who just got here or someone that's been building their reputation for the last half a decade or more? Why would we trust novices and people who know nothing about a topic to forge an opinion and make a decision on that topic just as well as a seasoned expert? That's a recipe for disaster. No thanks. Direct democracy is not a thing, nor should it be for these exact reasons.
There's also a question of who's going to organize all this infrastructure you're talking about. Do we just expect volunteers to jump in and do all the work for free? People love to say what needs to get done but very few of them are actually willing to put in the work to make it happen.
When people say direct democracy, they think everything should be voted on etc. ie. a pure direct democracy. This is not something feasible.
But for example Switzerland gives her people a right to vote on specific issues and many other ways to change the country's laws by people. Which is not a pure direct democracy, but has many tools that allow for a direct democracy.
A pure form of direct democracy would just result on a tyranny of the majority.
You know now that you mention it the idea I have for my own token would allow users to tweak something like interest rates directly with governance votes... lol... so perhaps I'm just being a massive contrarian these days just for the sake of disagreement.
Fuck it let’s go with 21% interest just to fuck with people and their unit bias. That would be awesome.
You’re a hell of a hype man! Back in the 50’s I think you would’ve been a circus ringmaster lol the new Barnum
Ha!
I mean seriously though it's triggering to see half the network thinking they know what it needs to be based on what 'feels right'. Like... really? We're going to govern economic policy based on feelz? That's so triggering.
For months we've been hearing those arguments here and there, but based on @dalz Charts and Data, I still don't get why the APR is still an issue. You don't fix what is not broken. @taskmaster4450 is right, we don't need new tokenomics, we need building, more and better apps.
Are you able to say which witness voted for which interest rates?
I will never vote a witness which is part of the 20% fraction.
Never.
Ah well as much as I don't approve of that answer it is nice that your vote actually matters.
Can't tell you how many times people have acted high-and-mighty with like 10 HP in their account.
Although I suppose even 10 HP would be a lot if we had like 100M users.
It's all relative.
So you are saying increase HBD interest in the bear, and decrease it in the bull...
I mean I've been saying that for over a year in half a dozen different ways.
The biggest indicator of being on the right track is the debt ratio.
I will sell over half my stack if we have a high debt-ratio during a bull market.
That's a disaster waiting to happen.
I absolutely agree.
I also agree. Inflation 101.
Thanks!
You can never satisfy everyone no matter the situation so am not surprised by the diverse opinions on the issue. I also think a gradual shift (like the 19%) proposed is likely the smartest thing to do if we must make changes and irrespective of the decision I certainly don't think I don't have a voice even with my little stake.
Another absurd idea: vote once and it stays forever even if the voter dies.
Witness votes should be refreshed periodically.
I think they are. PeakD tells you when they expire.
Votes expire after one year on inactivity in governance (witness and proposals voting).
guess i haven't been here in a while. i'm happy to hear that.
So here's a question: How many of the witnesses just haven't changed the 20% due to inactivity?
What are there, like 10k active users? Not even close to a parallel comparison.
Nice strawman you're building here
Your hyperbole is entertaining I guess, which is why you get those votes.
After the wash, Hive ends up being the exact structure as the hated US government, except you can vote witnesses out at anytime. The inherent complacency of the average human ensures that will be unlikely at any scale that's necessary to improve on the governance structure.
Stake based governance guarantees that an Oligarchy will arise, which it has and be in control when they feel like it. As we are discussing the issue, the one claiming to be asking for a discussion was already signalling 12%. They've since changed it, but shows that we can talk all we want, it's just to make us feel better, because our input is not only unnecessary, but since there's no polling, assumptions will be made claiming the end result is what we wanted.
I've seen this exact thing go down that way multiple times in the past and it's unproveable without polling if something is actually supported by the majority. Also, deny all you want, a bottleneck in governance of 21 people cannot be decentralized. Rationalizations do not equal facts.
Hive is not a democracy, never was, never will be, doesn't pretend to operate on that model.
It's dpos and it takes a handful of people to make the arguement, because the stake based system is geared to investors. It operates more closely to a corporation than a democracy. I know you didn't use the word democracy, but I thught it was interesting that you seem to think the stakeholders should react to the talking points and discussion.
Stake rules, doesn't make them right, or smart or good or bad for that matter, just means it takes a handful of them to outvote the rest of the community.
In a corporation usually takes 1. Shrugs, if you know it's DPOS the only thing to judge is whether or not you trust and respect the stakeholder.
Right, which is why we can't get the masses here. Decentralization is a dream that's touted, but not practiced. Hell, by @edicted's defintion of it, the US Gov is decentralized. As for a democracy? None exist nor ever have. That's doesn't mean things shouldn't be talked out with as many heads involved as possible. Also, your point doesn't mean that anyone has to roll over and shut up without a fight either.
Fuck me dead that was way too much information.
I made this comment on your other post, but wanted to add it here as well, since I saw the other post first, but this one is more recent.
I haven't been around as much, so I didn't know this conversation was happening, but I did expect it.
Since my job is time consuming and Bear Market Hive is depressing and boring, I haven't spent as much time around as I have in past bear seasons. Blame it on my entire life changing last year and having too much to handle.
In anycase, my plan was to power down half of my stake and put it in HBD since I haven't been as active and I want to avoid getting out of Hive entirely.
However, seeing this debate, I'm going to stop buy HBD until the argument wanes. Mind you though, I don't find liquid Hive to be a good holding and I am not sure I will not convert it to something else.
Great discussion, still catching up.
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Thanks for writing this article as it gives clarity to a lot of points. I find it healthy as well that these topics are openly and publicly discussed which promotes transparency. Helps the community remain actively engaged. What i’d really like to see now is the debt ratio and the supply vs demand ratio like you pointed out.
THIS POST!
I think dynamics connected with dump approaching after big change in interest rate should be aknowledge much more! Thanks for pointing that out.
https://leofinance.io/threads/rzc24-nftbbg/re-rzc24-nftbbg-2glpsssah
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20% is too high but i am impressed that IT Survived bear Market and Low hive prices.
Shared for conversation.
Excellent analysis, kudos!
I am happy to see people finally discussing the interest rate and hope that the witnesses significantly lower it.
I suspect that whales were behind the 20% rate. I noticed that the witnesses who voted for 20% went up in the ranks and those that resisted fell.
I don't really blame the witnesses as they must do what the whales desire.
BTW: I pulled my upvotes from every witness that voted 20%. I don't think it mattered.
I really hope that HIVE lowers (or even removes) the interest rate. Since the system guarantees HBD with HIVE, the interest becomes a heavy weight on HIVE.
What I've seen happen is that users accumulate HBD when the price of HIVE is rising. They then convert large amounts of HBD to HIVE during market dips. We have had three major dips since Christmas. In each of the major dips, users converted over a million HBD to HIVE at low HIVE prices.
This last dip saw about $250,000 HBD converted to HIVE.
Since HBD holders are timing the market, the impact of the conversions is magnified.
Timing is Everything
Your first post speculated that many HBD holders will convert HBD to HIVE. The worst thing that HIVE could do is to reduce the interest while the price is falling. If the witnesses decide to lower the rate, I hope they coordinate the event so that it happens when the market is rising as that might reduce the ill effects of a massive HBD to HIVE conversion.
Thank you for discussing this issue.
!WINE
I see your point. I sometimes feel like this isn’t a good example of decentralized governance, but you make good points.
20% is too high, and we shouldn't have started there, but we did and should defend it. Scaling down now just looks like weakness.
Right but if you recall all the other platforms at the time were offering 20%.
So again not doing 20% looked like weakness back then as well.