I've been here for four plus years, I've invested a ton of time and energy into this place. I'm not going anywhere. I am who I am, I've said fucked up shit to some of you, you've said fucked up shit to me. I know I'm not a people person and I don't try to be.
I'm here to provide a service that I think is valuable and necessary for the success of Hive, but at the end of the day a service is about providing something that people want and this post is my olive branch to ask, what is it that you want and to see if it's something we can agree on and hopefully find some middle ground or compromise.
I think if someone steals someone's artwork and claims it as their own, that's plagiarism. I think if someone steals someone's idea, even if they recreate it, that's plagiarism and I don't think plagiarism in any form, or any degree, should be allowed on Hive.
Whether you think these things are plagiarism, or you want to call them something else, either way, I don't think we should tolerate them on Hive.
While Hive might be social media, it's still a monetization platform, and I think it's unacceptable to monetize these things.
I know a lot of you don't seem to feel the same way about that and regardless of the semantics of it all, the big question is this: What do we want to allow and what do we want to prohibit?
Like, I show you a piece of meat, I don't care what you call it, if non suitable, rotten or glitter, what I care about is, if you would eat it.
In each of these cases, this artwork is presented as original creative content, when if fact, they are the product of someone searching out a creative work, copying it almost verbatim and presenting it as original.
Do any of you honestly think this will add value to Hive?
Do you honestly think this is the path to mass adoption?
In most cases the users participating in this sort of activity are immediately selling the Hive they earn and devaluing every Hive hodlers asset without adding any value in return.
Will talented artists take this place seriously if it's filled with this? When clear ripoffs, plagiarism, whatever you want to call it is rampant and unchecked?
I don't think they would.
Now, you all know that I'm no artist (I cant paint with these paws), I'm not what you'd call a "content creator" and truth be told, @midlet heavily helped me in writing this post you're reading right now, articulating these concepts in a congenial written manner.
But I think Hive needs more than just creators. We don't have a centralized abuse management system and I can tell you from my 4+ years of experience, abuse is rampant and NEEDS to be checked.
One thing you have to consider, I believe, is that the nature of the reports Jaguar Force publishes, given the nature of the work, is symbolic.
Most of the intelligence and investigation work, goes unpublished for strategic anti-fraud reasons, for example because it would showcase a very dangerous type of abuse that if copycatted could present serious problems, or investigations in which the evidence can not be published because the intelligence source can not be exposed.
A lot of curators and cleaners specifically ask me not to publish cases because of the aforementioned reasons, this is what they expect and I think that's a reasonable expectation.
So this is me putting out an olive branch.
What will we as a community tolerate?
Where is the line for you all?
I'm genuinely interested in starting a real conversation so we can work together to accomplish a balanced solution to the relevant issues.
Feel free to share your thoughts in the comments, but I've also created a room in the HiveKeepers Discord for private conversations that you can get access to if you DM me in Discord.
Let's talk. Let's walk together.
This is Jaguar Force,
Reporting Directly from the Jungle.
Onwards!
¿QUE PASO AHORA ALCOHOLICO DE MIERDA? ¿AHORA ESTAS PIDIENDO CACAO?
NO TE OLVIDES DE PEDIR PLATA, COMO EL MENDIGO QUE ERES.
You always had contempt for steem, and that you were just there to milk it and hone your plagiarism hunting skills (paraphrase). Judging by your actions on Hive, I have no reason to believe otherwise here. You've crossed the line on several occasions, and many of us are just plain sick of it.
You're just too much of a liability. Enjoy retirement.
Exactly
This is a social network. One of the critical element of a social network which pays you money, is to be respectful to a fellow human. You fail miserably on that.
Regarding the “service” you provide... who appointed you? Nobody. I can get the same service from HW without your baggage. I asked this question to HW, give me one reason why we want you around, and I didn’t get any reason. And this is coming from perhaps the only “friend” you have on the platform. Think about it how shameful is that?
You write this post when I am essentially taking out your rewards. You feel threatened. Right? Yep. I am just giving you your own medicine. And I am doing it pleasantly.
I have numerous DMs on how terribly you treat people. There are numerous public records on the chain on how terribly you have treated people.
Why people say.... staying here for 4 years... is a big deal... is a privilege? Why do you say that? I will say you have taken money out of the system for 4 years.... and have nothing to show for it. I see no reason to have you around. If you want to do this “work” for free.... please stick around. I will make sure you don’t get anything from reward pool.
Lets talk in private, please ask GP for an invite to the discord.
No private talk with you. You have lost that privilege.
I dont think I ever had that privilege to begin with.
Incorrect. I have DM’ed you in the past. Don’t lie.
Also I am a busy man. This is my final word on this matter. I only took time to respond to you because at least you wrote an “original” post. LOL.
incorrect
Is it the same discord that people have said you are not a part of?
No. He has his own discord server. Fairly soon he will be the only member in that discord.
what?
Das lastima gato gay
It has had to come to this for you to talk respectfully to any of us. You know that I am not fond of you at all since you tried to demean my English on an old @berniesanders post months ago. I'm a fucking Englishman, so good luck with that.
You hold barely a minnows worth amount of HIVE, send your rewards out on a regular basis, and promote anything you feel is considered fringe plagiarism for your own betterment. The latest one that I have seen being @esquisse, who was a new person and likely did not know any better.
@esquisse has now probably gone after being targetted by Spaminator. That was just meanness and uncalled for. You had this coming, I don't know why you couldn't see it.
We can argue forever about what is plagiarism. I can agree that not crediting someone whose work you have copied is wrong, but your attacks on some of these people have been over the top. These will generally be amateur artists, even if they earn on Steem/Hive. In some cases you did not even give them a chance to make their case before the flags rolled in.
I don't think you ever answered my query about music covers. In any case most art is influenced by other art (someone may have said 'great artists steal'.
By all means point out the problems, but let's try not to drive honest people away.
I am ignoring your attack on my integrity...
Nice try, but not. You are appealing to your 4 years of "career", and then moving to topic to the plagiarism, like who is against plagiarism should be in favor of you, because your awesome anti-abuse work. That's a fallacy. I don't think too many people is in favor of plagiarism, even less in favor of you.
So let's talk about your four years of "anti-abuse career".
Until October 2018, when the people had enough of your crap and destroyed you account Walden, you where basically farming from plagiarism. Several posts per day just posting pics from the internet or videos. Young nude girls that could almost be your daughter and music videos from the internet. You even posted private pictures of a user in underwear. Is funny to see how now you screw people because didn't source an art reference, or how you call child abusers to others, after look at the content of your Walden account.. In those times, eventually you did some real investigations, and just made up another ones. Everybody is free to take a look to your old account, and see the amazing first stage of your "anti-abuse work".
https://peakd.com/@walden/posts
So your account got destroyed, and you came back with Jaguar Force. Let's look at the second stage of you "career", as you claim that you invested a ton of energy in this place, and the first stage of it, don't really prove it.
What you do nowadays, is just drop pictures in the image reverse search. That's all. Sorry but that doesn't make you special or an awesome cleaner. Any curator does it dozens of times everyday. You don't complicate yourself looking for text plagiarism, or for farming rings... is more easy drop a picture in the reverse search, screw any irrelevant user, and let in peace the real mafias, investigate them is too much work.
So you are here claiming that we should bear your farm, toxicity, bullying, fake reports and blackmailing (you said, "I am who I am", nice euphemism), because your 4 years "anti-abuse career"... honestly don't try to fool us, anybody could do what you do, you just drop pictures in a reverse search.
We don't need you, your 4 years of "had work" are just bullshit. Even if you would be a real and awesome cleaner, that wouldn't justify all your abuse and crimes. But you aren't, you are just a farmer disguised as cleaner.
I hope to see you out of here, soon as possible.
Thank you very much for your valuable feedback.
Speaking for OCA, in general I don't think there's much misalignment when it comes to what I don't think should be supported.
I do think adjustments need to be made primarily in two areas.
When it comes to people breaking rules, there's really no need to insult them or call them names or really be antagonistic in any way. We have tools to deal with these things that I think are pretty effective.
If someone breaks a rule because of negligence, we should inform them of the rule they broke and mute the post. Flags are optional depending on the severity or maliciousness of what they've done, but in the end what people choose to flag is their own business so this is just my opinion. If someone repeatedly breaks the rules of a Community, they can be muted in that Community. If they are a severe, malicious abuser, they can be added to a blacklist as well.
I think this should be the typical order of doing things.
Of course some things are so obviously bad they can be instantly blacklisted like ID theft, but copying another artists work isn't at this level and in general if credited would usually not be frowned upon in the art world.
While it's not something I'd support, I think categorizing everyone that copys someone else's artwork a scammer or plagiarist is a step too far and in the big picture, harmful for the user experience because this is how a lot of amateur artists start out and develop.
In OCA, it's not allowed, but in general on Hive I think we need some other way to address this rather that attacking people and calling them scammers/plagiarists. I'm interested to see what other people think about this.
When it comes to edge cases and grey areas, I think we should lean on the side of tolerance and give people room to adapt. Posting someone else's art as your own or stealing someone's identity can't be a simple mistake or done out of thoughtlessness, but beyond that, I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they're only here to do harm.
As an artist if you make a study of another artist’s work, even a Photograph you must credit the original artist. If you present your version or study as your own work (without the original Source/ reference) you are a thief and a criminal.
I disagree, so does the law by the way, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Really ? How would you like it if I took one of your paintings, or photographs, traced it, copied it, made an almost identical copy and posted it as my own work ? Without mentioning you as a source or reference and made millions from that work ? How would you feel ?
Nobody is making a million dollars here. People are lucky if they make $20.
If Hive ever goes Up to $10 or more .. it would be quite a bit of $$.... like buying or selling something for 10,000 Bitcoin in 2010.
I have had my photography and paintings stolen, copied, posted on another blockchain where those thieves made $$$ from my works .
Where?
Probably Weku, lol. Where you can buy a "whale" account for like $8.
Yeah.... the Whales on Weku were stealing photos from Steemit.... posting it as their own work on Weku, upvoting with hundreds of weku and then quickly selling their Weku for Steem when Steem around $1
Lol Weku... $8? that's too expensive, I had the noob idea to put effort on Weku and I got $3.5 for around...150K wekus. Nobody got rich there, only the owners that got around $50K doing direct purchases to naive users... that place is a nest of scammers, most of them rejects from Steemit after the HF20.
By the way, Weku was open to the public in August 2018, Steem value was already very low... not $6.
Steem was around 80 cents at the time
I create All original Art. After noticing that several artists were tracing other people’s photography here I realized that The only way to show that you are creating original Art is to show a video of your process.... without tracing. And also show the photograph and give credit to the person who may have taken the photograph. I have learned that lesson the hard way. I once did a drawing of a fox from a photo I found on Google, and I could not later find the original photo Source. So Now I only make drawings and paintings from my own original Photographs.
Thank you :) glad to hear that from you.
Well I had lots of my original Photography stolen and posted on Weku .... and nobody did anything about it. Nothing worse than seeing some criminal steal your work and make $$$ From it.
I can find out who it was for you if you want :) Thats what I do after all. Just let me know.
I can’t remember exactly.... it was a WEkU whale.... one of the founders I think because when I confronted them I got banned from Weku. They stole all my photos from the Rideau River. They made thousands of $$$ selling their Weku for Steem back when Steem was $6
Well it sounds like someone stole your actual photos right? That's one thing. That is for sure plagiarism under any definition. But if someone painted one of your photos, you might not like it, and I get that, but it's not plagiarism or theft. If I paint a house did I plagiarize the architect? If I paint a car did I plagiarize the car designer? When you jump mediums like that you're creating a new and unique work that has value in and of itself.
Lots of artwork is inspired by other sources. Something being inspired by something is a lot different from theft.
If my profession is a Photographer.... and I get paid for my professional photographs of things.... and someone takes one of my photographs that i consider to be an artistic composition like a painting and then they go on to make a painting from my professional photograph and then they post that painting somewhere without a reference to my professional photo and they go on to make $$$ from their work and I make nothing from my original photograph .... then we have a big problem. I was taught this very valuable lesson here on Hive.
Go eat shit you drunk psychopath.
thats not very kind, Im not going anywhere, keep your bitches on bay.
I'll make sure to keep your rewards at bay and that you're done chasing away users for profit.
my rewards are none now imbecile, the posts are in BURN.
can you stop transactions in other chains taking place? I didnt think so.
Your reputation is still too high. Did you send back the 5 steem loan you asked for? I'll take it in Hive in that case.
He asked for a 5 Steem loan? lol. Did he need a candy bar?
do I owe you 1$, here you have it, roll it up and put it into your ass.
just felt like bringing that loan up :3
He called me a thief. Called my girlfriend a thief. Said I was operating a ring of thieves. Stereotyped citizens of my country Nigeria to be thieves.
All of these simply because I was negligent of the fact that someone I introduced to Hive engaged in ID theft. I refuted his claims, and yet he still found a way to twist his sick narrative and paint me a thief.
I was discouraged from onboarding new people on Hive
I was emotionally disturbed for days and even decided to quit Hive. It took @brumest words to give me strength to keep buzzing.
I don't celebrate people's downfall, but I'm glad you are being served your own meat. 😊😊😊.
Keep going man, don't take any notice of him. He's finished.
All anyone is asked to do is to give credit to the original source. That's it. Nothing else except give the source a credit.
That’s true.... but also don’t trace .... or if you trace at least say so.
Yes that's true. But that's not the point.
The point is the manner in which he express himself. And those are manners that we can't tolerate either.
I'm not talking about JF. I'm talking about honesty and original content on Hive. This is a general statement and has nothing to do with JF. The ask to credit sources existed years before JF.
You're completely right!
No one care about what you ask guiltypuppet. Do your job bro, you can't answer why you put me on your spaminator blacklist. Stop abusing of power. Justin Sun loves you 😘
Exactly.
One part of your post says about bringing value to hive and as a four year member running a service that makes you an ambassador for hive and someone that should be setting the best possible example for people joining. I've seen so many people driven away over the years by larger accounts going on the rampage over their own personal views. With that in mind if you want to improve the place and help it grow then it's important to deal with people in a respectful and professional manner.
As for plagerism my personal view on it is stealing somebody's id or pretending that a picture or painting is yours are the two that would be an issue and bed to be dealt with fast but respectfully.
After that recreations for me are not an issue any more than singing a cover song. It would be ideal if they state what art work they were recreating but that can be mentioned to them again politely as an improvement going forward.
Flagging should only be for theft and messages should never resort to cursing or calling names. That is not how you deal with people or users. That is not how you grow the eco system or encourage better behaviour.
I just love Irish people, I concur with you.
So tell me, how do we encourage better behavior?
For me working in business there is always one line that sticks in my head.
Attitude reflects leadership.
The newer accounts joining will look at the biggest accounts and the ones earning the most money and try to copy what they do. If those people are earning by acting in the right manner, people will copy that.
If those accounts are plagiarizing, scamming and just being shit posters then people will follow that example as well.
It's about setting the right example within each community from the top down and the people joining those communities will follow that culture. Whether it a good or a toxic one is up to the community mods and and larger accounts as they are the ones that incentivize how people act.
What you presents is sometimes just scratching the surface. Instead, you could reach out to the real artist and share those conversations with us. It will give a broader perspective on the artist point of view and ofcause tell the person that plagerism isn't okay here before posting your findings.
I do think you should post it either way and if the real artist doesn't answer you in a timely manner, you could still add the coversation, so we can see that you tried to contact them :D
Hi cwow2! Nice to see you around.
In tens of cases exactly what you are referring to was done in reports, for example, this is one prominent example:
https://peakd.com/fraud/@jaguar.force/id-theft-case-4-caso-de-robo-de-identidad-4-marloart
In every one of these many cases in which artists were contacted, a very thankful and favorable response was obtained, 100%.
That is some good shit :D Keep doing that :D
The last few have just been missing that! Steevc went to insta and ask the artist himself :D
Yeah I saw that. It was very kind of him. :)
ithink you should’ve let me edit your article. 😉
(kidding. Totally’fa king kidding).
Artists, writers, entertainers, all of’em (us). ithink If they use someone else’s material to enhance their own agenda without identifying the original source, they deserve a jungle-type kitten hot on their ass. ’Mmeeeeeo0O0oooww’
:attention: @jaguar.force went out of his way to personally assist my wife and I back in December and spent several hours doing so. Whoever these people are who don’t like you should try harder.
Examples used in post, I agree plagiarism, part of art is having something original. There are only so many ways you can do an Elvis Velvet portrait before it is no longer art. How many type and style of dogs or cats or mice or horses sitting around a card able playing poker do we need to see and still call it art, where is the originality. I do not think I have ever seen a portrait or a poster of four penguins sitting around a Risk game board playing, and if I did would I think of it as art? or a cheap knock off of the dogs playing poker?
Sometimes it is hard to see the plagiarism, and I understand a proof post of all of them would be impossible, (yes I know there are that many). Every now and then though a link to the copied image when not provided would be nice. Not always, just every now and then.
Along with the art plagiarism there is a lot of photo plagiarism with cropped out bits and pieces of images and being claimed as being taken by the poster. That I would like to see more busting of also.
Plagiarism I feel is one of the most important things to control, if something has not been posted as free to use, or through a system that allows Share Link such as youtube, then copying and posting it is plagiarism. If it comes from a share link site then it is not plagiarism. If the person that posted it to the share link site wanted their name associated with the link then it is up to them to add it to the share link information, otherwise I feel it is free to use. Whether a cable news station, or Billy Joe Bob down the block. If they use a site with share Link then it is not copyright infringement.
If an individual does not want the link/video shared, then I am sure there is a means on youtube to disable that share function button, and if not then the poster needs to clearly state not to be shared.
I have had my issues with you in the past, but that was and is in the past, it is time to move forward and in a decentralized system there are going to be a lot of differing opinions. As a community we are going to need to take on the burden of defining and refining our ideas on what is right and what is wrong, with leaving room for the outlier types to still enjoy Hive. Midlet has started the ball rolling as the Admin/Owner of OCA community, one I enjoy a lot, I hope to see other communities start to speak up as to what will be allowed in their communities.
The Art communities on line and off line have always had to contend with copycat/plagiarism, and it is nice to see people taking action on Hive to curtail the adverse effect of it.
Thank you for extending the Olive branch. I have always respected the work you have done to point out plagiarism but have always felt you were too militant in doing so. It seems to have had the effect of driving potentially good artists away from the platform.
When many people start in the world of art copying is a very legitimate way to learn. Of course, I agree that there should be a sourced reference if it is done like this but this is also part of the learning process.
There will be those who are just plagiarists trying to make a quick buck but I think that with the kind of work you do it needs a certain diplomacy which you don't seem to have and this is what has caused much of the push-back from the community and I am glad that @midlet is trying to mediate.
I accidentally voted a post which you later found to be dubious and then you seemed to want to start an argument with me over my vote (I had also resteemed to post). This kind of behavior will win you no supporters on your mission.
I do hope you continue the work you do but I do think you need to tone it down and give more benefits of the doubt till people prove themselves to be irredeemable. I think we are all in this together and everyone has a part to play in policing the blockchain. Sometimes a caution is all that is required.
These are just my two cents on the matter.
@2020 ammonite
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You have been a piece of shit for four years on the blockchain. Congratulations
Nadie te necesita aquí gatito, te esperamos en STEEMIT, justin te ama, das lastima hermano. Te lo repetiré "esfuerzate más pelotudo" 😅 hablemos de eso, ¿sabias que das lastima al publicar estos posts?
Emp-2.0.4com LMAO!
Upvoted, ohhhh es para null - tienes mi voto
PIDIENDO CACAO?
¿QUE PASO AHORA ALCOHOLICO DE MIERDA? ¿AHORA ESTAS PIDIENDO CACAO?