Steem-UA and Utopian

in #steem-ua3 years ago (edited)


I don’t want to talk bad about a good concept but I believe there is a issue that needs addressing. I am one of the first people who talked with @scipio about delegating my full 2.100 steem power. This might not seem a lot to some, but that was my complete balance on steem at the time. I took down my delegation from @tipu and send it without any question to @steem-ua. Why because the concept is great and the ideas behind it are brilliant.

First let me give you some numbers. To show you how bad a idea it is to delegate a lot.


As you can see in the image delegating a big chunk to steem-ua means a loss of 60% a day. When you selfvote. As I don’t do these things I am more then happy to take a loss. And no problem with it what so ever. But when you read the following I strongly disagree with the way the big delegators are treaded.

Now I have been seeing some strange things. Utopian has delegate the full 18.000 sp to steem-ua. For that there contributors are taking into the post curation system. All nice and great that more people can benefit from steem-ua. But here is the catch. Why is that all posts from utopian that get a vote that is at least double of all the others. Why is it that one person gets a vote of 0.2 and the utopian post gets a vote of 0.5. Or even worse I seen a total batch get a vote of 0.1 and then all utopian posts 0.3.

After talking to @scipio about it and getting a response I concluded that in essence utopian runs in between the normal rounds. So for delegating they get a vote for all the contributors that are approved. I asked @scipio for a average number of votes / day for utopian he stated it are around 20 on average. As they don’t run in with the normal batch I can only wonder how the values are decided. I do however need to state they get higher votes then the normal delegators (with some obvious exceptions).

So in essence you as a delegator share a round with 790 delegators and you get a specific slot from top contributor to down ride sucky. Votes vary according to it. But the votes from utopian don’t get calculated in the rounds. So they get high votes no matter what. I seen post from a utopian contributor go as high as 1.2 with 3 comments on it? How can you explain that when someone who is delegating for themselves is receiving 0.1?

The one explanation I got from @scipio is that they get voted in before utopian bot votes on them. Because that would jinx because utopian is a high UA account. When I asked him why he could not exclude utopian bot from the voting he told me it was hard. Yet it is easy to make a utopian post go in between the other batches? As some might know I am learning to program. So this looks very easy to me.

if(utopian = present) { throw utopian ua out of calculation }

I wonder why this has not been shared. Why this info is hidden for the public. I got a special treatment and was added to the big delegator sponsor reward system. But that info was shared with the steem-ua users. Why was this not shared from the start? And look back at the calculations I made at the start. The normal sponsor reward only starts at 5.000 delegated sp. Meaning I would have made a loss of 80% instead of 60%. Because the 1.4 is the vote I got from the sponsor reward. Can you imagen what loss you would make if you delegated even more.

The facts speak for themselves and I don’t agree with this. I don’t agree with the fact this is not common knowledge. And I don’t agree that the delegators are loosing upvote rewards for a system like utopian who have 2-3m in sp. I don’t see any other big delegator gaining upvotes because they delegated 50.000 sp or more?

I understand I will probably make some people angry with this. And I will be getting some flags. But I believe transparency can make a system like UA truly great. But I felt I was tricked into this without knowing all the facts. @scipio is truly a smart person and I am shure he will do what is right. But at this moment in time I don’t agree with the actions or how this system abuses its delegators.

This is “friends politics” like we call it in Belgium!


@zoef, your post more or less has two aspects, which I'll now publicly address, again:

-1- Utopian contributions:
As I have explained multiple times, to you, announced in posts, and in our Discord public channels, the only reason to vote utopian contributions "in between" (and not within the regular algorithmic batched rounds) is to not favor those Utopian posts over others. Utopian, is the only high-UA account on Steem constantly upvoting approved HQ Utopian contributions with a lot of SP, and commenting on those posts as well. There is nothing wrong with that.

But our @steem-ua Algorithmic Curation Batched scoring works, via ...

UA_Vote = x * UA_Account + y * UA_Post + z * UA_Comment

Because each approved Utopian contribution adds disproportional amounts to both UA_Post and UA_Comment, we decided to only compare the Utopian contributions to themselves, which we do.

-2- high-SP Sponsor Rewards:
When we went live, with @steem-ua, you whole-heartedly delegated about 2200 SP, which accounted for about 98% of your entire SP. Because you did that, I publicly announced that I wanted to reward you for that, by adding you to the high-SP Sponsor Rewards, currently only eligible for sponsors delegating >= 5,000 SP. Which I did only, after asking other (bigger) sponsors if they were OK with that; I also announced it in my post prior to our first weekly Sponsor pay-out.

Afterwards, you contacted me - as you are explaining yourself in this post of yours - that you expected a higher reward, still, that you felt you deserved / wanted more.

In your post, you are comparing our high-SP ROI (well, that in the first week) to 100% self-voting 7 * 10 every week and by delegating to bid-bots. While I am happy to explain your calculations are wrong, I refer to , where you can see (bottom chart) that the cumulative proportion of small SP delegations is rising. In short, that means ROI for high-SP sponsors is getting better and better.

Now, the @steem-ua delegation system is intended to incentivize planktons and minnows to delegate 250 SP because that is far more profitable than self-voting comments and "shitposts" (credits to @berniesanders for that term). I want to encourage people to publish good content, to not self-vote, to network, meet friends, have fun, and to let planktons feel that it is actually still possible for them to earn on Steem.

Does that mean that the current sponsors whole-heartedly delegating 50,000 SP to @steem-ua are treated badly by me? Am I deceiving them, leading them to "bad ROI"? No, and I'm quite sure that investors owning a lot of SP agree: a real investor, investing in something good, is not driven by immediate ROI but sees the potential of his/her investments in the mid-to-long term.


Well here we go again.

By excluding them there is no real batch for them. Meaning that the algorithm will work solely for them. That means they don’t get planted in between the other posts. And when you look at utopian posts you clearly see the advantage of that. 0.5 – 0.6 - 1.23 (this one got 3 comments and a upvote from utopian of 110, so it makes me believe there is more to it than we thought. As I cannot prove this I will not go into details) are just some of the votes I could find. While 100s of posts receive a 0.1 upvote. You can say that a lot of them are not worth any upvote but some do.

Please explain why my calculations are wrong? I received them so I can tell you they are correct. And don’t forget there was one mistake in there (intentional to use in a situation like this). The upvote from steem-ua has not gotten the curation deducted :P. so the 0.4 = 0.3. Tnx for sharing that with us.

A real investor knows these things in advance! If they don’t get the full story they call it a break of contract and sue whoever did not tell them everything. I agree an investor looks at the long road ahead. But I can not trust someone who is not transparent with this details.

P.S.: I thought you would no longer respond to me?
P.S.: And why did you kick me of steem-ua? I guess I used up my usefullnes.

@steem-ua votes to Utopian posts are in the same ranges Zoef. Here's an example. I'm sure you can find others that are higher, so can I find regular batched examples that are higher.


And again: we use our same algorithm to compare utopian contributions to eachother, as stated multiple times now.

PS: you are not "kicked" from @steem-ua. You decided yourself to undelegate (currently 0 SP). I did block your DMs now, but you are still welcome in the steem-ua Discord Server.

For all of you who don't want to go and search for the post scipio is talking about. It is one who got a vote for 0.2. None the less we can go back and forth with i find this and you find that.

The essence remains the same. It is a special agreement that has huge benefits for utopian.

I was removed from steem-ua discord. As I myself did not leave the server. You saying I was not is a tat silly.

The last 2000 votes from @steem-ua giving out in normal voting rounds are between 5.6% and 0.05% with a mean vote percentage of 1.65%. A utopian related vote is in the same range. @scipio explained it. You have not been banned from the discord by the way.

Tnx for this info. I hope people will see it. (if you allow me I can take a screenshot and add this info to my post).

Yes I was removed holger80. I don't know by who but I was.

I would like to delegate 75 SP please send me the link in order to do so?
Yours Always
Pricasso ;)

I would like to delegate 75 SP please send me the link in order to do so?

Yours Always
Pricasso ;)

Look, Utopian doesn't need steem-ua upvotes and the delegation was only done to show our support to the initiative. The votes for our contributors are only meant to incentivise Utopians to know and work with steem-ua. Call it "marketing" or "mutual support" or "partnership" between two relevant projects. Now if the vote is biased or not, or in general all the calculations you did here, honestly I have no idea. The whole background of this post is wrong, considering profits or losses are not the main concepts that should drive steem-ua. The whole delegation for upvotes is taking too much importance, shadowing the only real purpose of the project.

No but if one recieves major benefits over another there is a issue. It is like giving your one twin son 50$ in pocket change and your other 20$. Just because you want to. A system like ua who yells fairness to the blockchain. And then does this .... ?

If Utopian contributors get higher votes than other participants of steem-ua, which is supposed to be based on a set of UA metrics, then the system is wrong. However, the information about steem-ua supporting the Utopian contributors was announced publicly and scipio did not hesitate to explain the mechanism in Discord too.

Anouncing it and explaining the workings is something diffrent. There is no word about they beeing curated oudside of the batch. Now word anywhere. So don't come in here on a high horse claiming it does.

And we don't live on discord do we? Nothing in sticky that i could find.

Return on investment rarely happens immediately. And I'm not sure it was wise to delegate so much of your SP to one project. You did so at the expense of your own followers, the people you tend to upvote consistently. Investments are more than plus/minus. They involve faith and vision in those projects with which you align and involve yourself. Investment involves risk, pure and simple. It sounds like you're surprised at this fact and refusing to accept the implicit risk in your investment.

I had alot of faith in the project mainly because it is scipio whois running it. But he also made it sound alot better then it actualy was as a investment standpoint. I stil believe in the viability of the project. I am just warning that transparancy is key! Sertanly when delegators of 500+ are making great losses 60 - 80%. You can say you need vision but these % are big.

There is risk threw knowledge and risk by jumping in blind.

Everyone who ever did bussines knows this. You can calculate risk by what information you have. If then someone does not share all the knowledge from the start the risk calculations go up! I am a small investor who invests by knowledge. And by info people provide me. If the info is not correct or even plainly not told i have a issue!

He didn't make it "sound alot better" as an investment to me. The resulting upvote is secondary. I delegated because I believe the service adds value to the STEEM blockchain. Not because I expect an upvote ROI.

Then you are not a investor but a visionary. A investor believes in a project but expects a ROI. A visionary does not care about the ROI they believe blindly in a project.

And don't think everyone is like that. Most people delegate 250 because it has a better ROI then anywhere else. And that is because big delegators are loosing.

I do expect an ROI, but not today. I expect that the reputation service will improve the Steemit platform and improve my individual experience/success on the platform. I delegated before I even knew there was the possibility of an upvote. And the fact that I must then compete during each upvote round doesn't bother me at all. It's further support of the idea of this new type of reputation score; you can compete for this upvote based on your level of interaction rather than the age of your account.

The issue with the need to post is that i do not like to force a post out to get a upvote. So in essence i was hoping that the supper vote was gonna be close to 5-6. So that i could leave the post vote out. It never was explained well enough for any of us to know what this vote weight was gonna be.

But when it was only 1.4 I was a bit suprised indeed. That mestake is on me for not asking.

But like most of us on steemit we are here to earn something. But when the earning is droped by 60-80% I need to take action. Thats why i first dropped my delegation to 250. To leave something for steem-ua to use.

But when i saw this i pulled everything out.

And happy you earned 0.3 because of scipio's upvotes. Lmao the sillyness in this is clear.

I thought you were very respectful at expressing your concerns, and I see elear has clarified his stance too...

I dont think there is a reason why you should fear retaliation, not even in the slightest.

No reason for anyone to be angry either.

Tnx for this meno. Ofcourse I feared retaliation. But I am a strong advocat of transparency and honesty aswell.

@zoef they probably dont like belgium, i havent had a reply and its been seven days ... maybe small fry aint worth the time anymore lol ...plenty of bots, mate ... when i read the word utopian three times in one post i'm already like "o wooo, upper-classsss" ...
those people like it when you play nice doggie and roll-over to get a one-time cookie, play enlightened content dictator, i was lurking on that server a while, i never even tried, it feels like begging at the table of the rich

And I agree. I contributed a lot on utopian. And I have had my issue with some of the moderators there. The entitled ego centric people over there is astounding. I needed to contact sup mods and even owners to get work approved because the mods did not want to. Even though I did not break any rules.

And now this BS. You can see it however you want but if someone is not in the pool there is a advantage to one group. Saying it is because utopian is a high UA account is a excuse. If you can drag one group of contributors oud of the pool you can also drag one account out of the pool.

I am glad I pulled out my delegation and I believe many more would do it if they know this.

it's purely upper-class politics, man @zoef ... but you're right, its pointless, those people have all the clout they need, they don't need to listen to lower lifeforms lol. Don't bust your head over it, just find something else, there's always new people doing new things, its just how the world works.
I can't say i have had any actual issues with them, i even once got a cookie without asking for pointing out an idea to someone else, but the elitist nature makes me feel very much not at home in that environment, just check around, there's lots who wonts bam you unless you do kiddiepron or scams

Hehe :)

no matter what, it remains a buyers market, if they don't supply to the demands then someone else will over time, its almost inevitable, the universe abhorrs vacuums as some wise dude used to say. If you stay unattended to, and more like you then someone else will pick that up, as long as there's something to be gained :)

Agreed. I do however believe there is a place for steem-ua on the market. And the ideas and concepts behind it are great. But if they keep on making special deals for systems that already have enough steem power to help there users I wonder. Why is it that one big delegator gets a normal 7 votes and a system like utopian gets 20-30-50 a day? That by itself is unfair. You could say they provide the power for there contributors. But then they could have said the same to me. You delegate 2100 you can choose 8 people that can benefit from our service. But that did not happen 😊


Congratulations! This post has been upvoted from the communal account, @minnowsupport, by ZoeF from the Minnow Support Project. It's a witness project run by aggroed, ausbitbank, teamsteem, someguy123, neoxian, followbtcnews, and netuoso. The goal is to help Steemit grow by supporting Minnows. Please find us at the Peace, Abundance, and Liberty Network (PALnet) Discord Channel. It's a completely public and open space to all members of the Steemit community who voluntarily choose to be there.

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