Ah then you agree that the Hive HF is theft and we are going to get away with it because we are decentralized. Interesting.
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Ah then you agree that the Hive HF is theft and we are going to get away with it because we are decentralized. Interesting.
I wonder... I get the reasoning... BUT.
How can you steal something he didn't own in the first place. I mean, he was told in advance that he wouldn't be getting any Hive. I don't see how that would be theft.
The value of Hive at the creation was basically 0. No-one could have known beforehand it would even appreciate. Justin also didn't invest in Hive, he invested in Steem. So if the so-called theft happened in the time of the fork, we would have stolen exactly $0 from Justin.
On the other hand, Steem as a currency token did already have established worth, it was also longer on a blockchain, but a on simple centralized ledger, and Justin took away millions of dollars from their owners.
I'd like to point out that since it isn't a blockchain anymore, the "country" argument kind of falls flat.
Using the same logic, no one owned Steem coins on HF23; this was a also a totally new coin, and the users were told in advance that they wouldn't be getting any.
We confuse this issue because they kept the same branding, but the code is different and not backwards compatible like a soft-fork.
You better not live in America, or otherwise you are showcasing your ignorance of your government's ultimate imperialist tactics that seek to control everything. When we install a puppet government somewhere that place is no longer a country? Get real.
That is exactly what happened here. Imperialist pig Justin Sun invaded Steem and installed a puppet government. It's still a country... it's just a weak country that's being controlled by another entity.
You forget, that the HF22 chain was destroyed in the process, there was nothing left for those people who owned those coins. Effectively this meant they lost. Telling them beforehand didn't help because they weren't even given the option to keep their coins, Justin had power over all the top 20 witnesses remember. Also, Justin still has his Steem, he never lost it. Your logic is faulty.
Apples and oranges. Blockchain, not a country either.
Yeah, you can't delete open-source code that exists on hundreds of servers.
You're really out of your element on this one.
This community split has 2 sides: Hive vs Steem.
Both sides changed their distribution to nullify the top players of the other community.
This is how DPOS works; end of story.
People who think there should be some magical third community that rescues a fork where both Hive and Steem whales both have stake? You're living in a fantasy land; no one wants to be a part of that community, which is exactly why that fork is dead.
Not going to argue this when I'm almost asleep.
All I want to ask is:
Did all the guys who lost Steem have the blockchain saved on their servers, and if they did, do they still have Steem, or some other cryptocurrency?
Every Steem node has a record of what happened. It can't be erased. Anyone who wants to start producing blocks on HF22 is free to do so... Oh wait, you'd have to fork out Steemit Inc's stake... oh wait, we already did that.
As far as what the currency is called, I think it's hilarious that people put so much weight on intellectual property law and corporate branding. When something is open-source you can call it whatever you want. We are so brainwashed by the old fucked up centralized system of economic slavery and ownership that this new emergent cooperative economy doesn't even make sense to us. Sad.
I don't care about any of that. I care about justice. That asshole owes millions to the people he wrongfully deprived their money from.
Justin never lost anything in this whole debacle. Okay, maybe he lost his credibility in many people's minds, but that's probably all he lost.
I mean that guy needs a lesson in how to treat other people.
Not giving someone a birthday present isn't a theft of the birthday present they never had.
I don't need a lecture and dumbed-down simplistic metaphors to understand this issue.
I understand this issue quite well.
DPOS is a governance structure. If you make the laws, it's pretty hard to prove that you are breaking the law, because obviously you're the one making them. Theft is defined by the governance structure that applies.
Clearly, you do not accept the sovereignty of Steem and you believe that the laws of another nation apply in this case. Perhaps this is because you are an imperialist pig. Perhaps it's because Steem is a centralized piece of shit and Steemit Inc is clearly in violation of securities law.
Consider that I understand this issue better than you do,
and I will do the same.
This is simply theft of an existing asset.
The thing to prove for the thought exercise to work is whether the same code applied to a new asset is theft.
But I agree there never was an "airdrop" beyond the term used in the announcement of hive's launch. The ledger backs there was no airdrop, only past wallet transactions. That could have been handled better but would have required more time and been a much more processing intense operation at the time of actual forking.
Why does everyone think this was an existing asset?
Because they kept the same branding "Steem"?
Every hardfork is a new asset.
It's very clear.
New code; new asset.
If this was not the case the Hive would also not be a "new asset", which it "obviously" is.
Think about the difference between Steem and Hive.
Calling Steem HF23 an "old asset" and Hive HF23 a "new asset" is ridiculous.
If anything, Steem is the new asset and Hive is the old asset.
Hive has 90%+ of the Layer 0 intact.
Think about it.
Because the people don’t really give much priority to understanding the nitty-gritty of backends. They just see that token is same in their wallet and on exchanges. Didn’t require to be listed again.
If analysed purely on the technicalities, then yes I totally agree. Blocktrades pre-hive post about forks also backs it. In a future with blockchain specialized courts this may be an important thing, but right now I don’t see any prosecutor reject the case because the understanding isn’t that far yet.
Also, while I understand the devil’s advocate part, is this really how we want to mainstream? I know it’s not how I imagine mainstraiming will (ever) happen.
Well what I actually think is that we WILL be able to have our cake and eat it too. We can "steal funds" and when a centralized attacker "steals funds" in return we can take them to court and win and they can't take us to court. Only centralized authorities can be regulated. And they will be. That's the crazy part.
It would appear you understand DPOS, great. Unfortunately code is only law until it meets a real judge in the real world at which point it most certainly is not law.
Steem and Hive aren't sovereign. Sorry.
And what will you say when a crypto city-state pops up?
What will you say when Hive owns physical land and makes the laws?
You seem blind to where this is going.
The coming storm is going to knock most people on their ass.
Are you prepared for water shortage, famine, and war?
I'm not but I'm trying.
@brianoflondon & I actually live in a country that was (re)created by an idea and a group of people (many still alive) who fought to achieve it against the greatest of odds and at huge cost. Indeed it is considered by many to be miracle.
You have no idea what it takes to achieve sovereignty - it is extremely difficult and rarely comes without great bloodshed.
Neither Hive nor any other crypto project has even a fraction of the attributes of a sovereign entity.
If a crypto city-state pops up it will likely be very quickly crushed by whatever country's territory it pops up in.
A judge in what country?
These people are mafia.
Do you know how the mafia works?
Judges get bought.
Do you think Justin Sun gives a shit if Steemit Inc gets sued into bankruptcy?
He's hiding behind a Limited Liability Corporation.
Steemit Inc is broke and doesn't have any money.
If you win in court he doesn't owe dollars; he owes Steem.
Watch him dump Steem to sub one cent and then claim Steemit Inc was hacked and has $0.
He'll declare bankruptcy and get away scot free.
You guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about and this strategy is shit and can only hurt Hive.
TILTED!
Apologies.
You clearly don't even understand the difference between a criminal case (=jail) and a civil case (=$).
A LLC is no protection in a criminal conspiracy theft case.
A Judge in the US or UK cannot be bought by Justin Sun, a Chinese national, especially in such a clear cut theft case and especially in the current international environment.