What's Next for EOS, ETH, and BTC?

in #eos3 years ago


In light of my recent resignation from block.one, I would like to address those with questions about my relationship to EOS and the broader cryptocurrency industry. It breaks my heart to watch as a cloud of censorship and regulation descend over a technology that many of us hoped would free us from the international banking cartels. We all cheer as the price of Bitcoin reaches new all time highs, but I cry as the vision of what Bitcoin promised to be fades away.

In the early days of Bitcoin we would use it to buy and sell. It facilitated bounties and international transactions with strangers. The transaction fees were low and no one worried about tracking cost basis and reporting to the IRS. Bitcoin was a functional medium of exchange free from any intermediaries.

Bitcoin, like gold before it, has been captured by the regulatory apparatus. Privacy is rapidly disappearing and attempts are being made to frustrate those who want to use Bitcoin without a regulated custodian. This turns Bitcoin into “just another financial asset” with the sole remaining innovations being provably limited supply and political neutrality.

Bitcoin may very well replace gold in the future and reach inconceivable highs. It may very well save your portfolio from the coming hyperinflation. But it will no longer save you from financial oppression.

EOSIO is a toolkit that enables both public and private blockchains. Discussions on the relative decentralization of EOS vs Bitcoin vs Ethereum are moot in a world where all three blockchains are falling victim to the same regulatory frameworks.

Decentralized finance is a dream that I introduced with BitShares a full 5 years before it became a buzzword. I fear that this dream is also losing the war of regulation. As efforts grow to block “self custody” of your own tokens, all smart contracts that are not approved and managed by a regulated custodian will also become a victim.

Major privacy coins are being delisted from exchanges because of anti-money laundering regulations, OFAC, and other regulations. Decentralized exchanges will depend upon the ability to self-custody BTC, EOS, and ETH. The proceeds from selling privacy coins on decentralized exchanges will be heavily scrutinized if not blocked entirely when they are deposited to the major exchanges.

Granted, everything I have said so far assumes a United States centric perspective; however, the only way to stay out of “US” jurisdiction is to perform KYC on everyone who uses your service. This is a heavy burden on decentralized applications and a burden that is not easily outsourced.

Lastly, anyone building anything that results in economic profit and loss imposes tax consequences on their users. Tokens like Voice or Hive create tax events every time they change hands. This is why I decline rewards when I post on Hive, they are not worth the tax accounting. With the growing sophistication of the tax authorities and the loss of privacy, none of these token-based ecosystems / platforms stand a chance unless they automatically do all of the tax calculations and boil it down to a 1099. The only way to automate such calculations is to have full knowledge of every purchase price and sale price. Such things are not possible if users are trading on multiple exchanges in a decentralized manner.

With that context what can we do to make EOS “successful”? There is no single answer to that question because we all have different definitions of “success” and the paths to “success” can head in opposite directions. The most common definition of “success” that I see is a high token price. EOS is “successful” if everyone who buys it makes money. What if EOS achieved this “success” by becoming a completely regulated, centralized, walled garden of KYC’d users?

What would the role of the EOS token be in such an environment? What if the EOS network achieved mass adoption, but the EOS price fell to be valued like a company earning transaction fees? The EOS token is used to buy scarce resources on the network, such as RAM and CPU time. Alternatively the EOS network can be viewed as DAC selling transactions. Anyone with any economic sense knows that the cryptocurrency market is utilizing some other valuation method completely divorced from technological and business fundamentals. Making EOS “successful” in terms of price appreciation requires a completely different mindset. It requires marketing EOS to “currency speculators”. The price can only increase if people believe more people will buy it tomorrow.

So let's talk about getting more people to use the EOS network. I asked myself a hard question: “Why do people use Ethereum when the fees are so high and its scale so limited?”. Clearly there must be some cost to using EOS that is not fully accounted for by the transaction fees. I believe that cost is in the infrastructure requirements to operate a full node. Transaction fees may be “cheap” to the end users, but the real cost are externalized on to full node operators which are not paid by inflation.

If I was the “CEO” of a company in the business of facilitating smart contracts, then I would offer infrastructure as a service and ensure that anyone could deploy applications and that all costs associated with operating these applications were covered by transaction fees. The closest thing EOS has to a “CEO” is the elected block producers. These are the guys who are paid to make EOS a desirable platform. Note, that this is not purely a technology issue. This is about the infrastructure as a service and hosting nodes and economic sustainability.

If the EOS block producers were to operate API nodes that can handle all the read queries app developers can throw at them then costs would not be externalized. If the EOS block producers could host IPFS nodes to pin files needed by apps, then the applications could be fully decentralized. The block producers would then cover their costs via inflation or fees.

So the question becomes, how does a community of token holders “force” their hired block producers to provide the services required to attract more developers? In theory, token holders are supposed to vote in producers that provide the most value to the network. In practice, token holders vote in people who pay them kickbacks. It would be like Apple shareholder’s electing a board that issued new shares and distributed them as kickbacks to a subset of the shareholders.

How then is the EOS network suppose to advance in a sustainable manner? What can any single individual do? What technological code could be developed?

People have proposed a system to “vote to fund proposals”. In principle, this is no different than voting to fund block producers. What rules and incentives will change the game theory to produce a different outcome?

If you bring democracy to a country full of socialists you will get vastly different results than bringing the same democracy to a country full of libertarians. These results can last until the economic incentives of democracy slowly turn the libertarians into socialists.

“Success” of mass adoption and token appreciation requires not just improved technological solutions, but the cooperation and wisdom of the vote-casting token holders. I have put forth proposals designed to align power with long-term commitment to token price and to simplify the economic model of purchasing CPU time on the network. I have put forth proposals to increase the representation of token holders among the block producers. I have put forth proposals to encourage cooperation of producers by punishing everyone if anyone misses a block. While at block.one I led a team that implemented all of these proposals in a matter of months.

Now it is a matter of getting voters to approve them.

In light of the recent regulatory environment, the EOS community has a choice between moving toward more decentralization or toward more compliance with regulation. Moving toward more decentralization would mean intentionally limiting EOS throughput and therefore raising transaction costs. This would be done to reduce the cost of operating a full node which will minimize externalized costs.

If EOS is to grow in scale, then application developers will require large scale infrastructure which is costly to operate. A business able to support this infrastructure would have to comply with regulations. By the time all the regulations are complied with, such a business is usually better off operating their own private EOSIO chain.

So there you have it, BTC, EOS and ETH are all being valued as currencies disconnected from technological fundamentals. All three are on a path to be captured by regulators with a complete loss of privacy. The best hope a token can have for capital gains is to maximize its utility as money and its compliance with regulations and work to get institutions adopt it. I believe that the staking pool model will make EOS a better currency and that KYC’d accounts with regulator approved smart contracts trading regulator approved assets may be the only way forward if massive capital gains are the goal.

Block.one is in the ideal position to take EOS in this direction if the community chooses to go that route. I, on the other hand, am not interested in having my innovation limited by the whims of government regulators. Those of us interested in creating tools that return power to the people will need to look elsewhere. Our “profit” is not measured in dollars, but in “freedom”.

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All of the issues you talk about with EOS, Hive does not have

We don't have vote-selling either, exchanges don't vote because of the long lock-up, and large stakeholders don't vote in witnesses that offer kickbacks; we vote in the best. We vote the best because our tokens are locked for so long; a measly little kickback is nothing compared to the millions of tokens I have locked for so long.

Also, we are not here for the money. Justin Sun's marketing campaign was akin to that of Xerxes, "we give you exchanges, liquidity, and pumped prices!" Our community had just suffered a 3-year bear market; Ned was nowhere to be seen, the token price in the dumps and some billionaire comes and says, hey guys, let's go to the moon! We did not bend the knee; we are here because we want censorship-resistance away from the state. I'm not sure there is a tougher, more decentralized network out there than Hive. If you try to take us over, we fork you, dump the former token and power upon the other chain.

And we have had people bark up Hives tree about regulators, but who are you going to mail on Hive? No one owns it. The largest hodler here is 100% anon and has like 3% of the stake. We have a robust middle class. There isn't any person that has the power to do anything on this chain, esp if it was hostile. Hive reacts very much to hostile takeovers; we come out of the woodworks.

So I like what we have here, you can improve the technology, but you can't just flip a switch and improve the community. A community must be earned, and Hive has many battle stripes.

All very good observations. Strength and unity of community is key. The tech is almost secondary.

Indeed, a community aligned to certain principles is high valuable. What about pursuing again a Constitution? do you still think that a blockchain should have a constitution ?

We have a dan larimer pedigree chain eosio called telos made by douglas horn who helped co found a living xanadu constitution here https://telos.net look at explore and telos amend and download SQRL wallet to see the telos constition https://SQRLwallet.io

Becaudr of my proposal and generous support ffrom @dapperd Telos airdropped some telos to 16 000 pre hive fork steem accounts with https://steem-engine.net u may have some already

Actually this strong middle class has proven to be super important. If there are so many people who are kind of rich, it's hard to bribe them or supress them without global coordination and spending lot of money to track their real IDs. This layers 0 stuff makes me wonder if Hive can be bigger than EOS.

The (semi-)centralization of EOS is its Achilles's heel. It's easy to come after just few stakeholders and devs. Even the 13 week power down is probably one of the greatest features about Hive. It really force people to be in it for the long term.

I think people undervalue how important distribution is in DPOS, I'm pretty sure Hive is one of the best distributed currencies out there, closest competition would probably be dogecoin.

You think? What about BAT, PRE and PI? Am certain these tokens are in more hands then HIVE. Just a little observation 😉

Sure, but I don't mean amount of different hands, I mean stake distributed widely to as many as possibly based on existing active accounts.

Sure, I understand. Didn't look into the coins I mentioned regarding voting rights ie the stake you talk about.

Also, we are not here for the money.

Just a guess, but I'd say that more than a few people are here for the money. If not, why does the question When moon? seem to be asked so often?

I am here for the money, but only if we keep our principles. I sold all my steem as soon as I could.

And you shall be rewarded in blockchain heaven my son .

Hah https://getwombat.io prepare with wombat Telos and EOS wallet

Agree, I think the majority is here for the money. Maybe not the true hardcore HIVE-ers, they continue using HIVE regardless of HIVE value at the exchanges. We've seen a drop of usage as lig as we see a drop of HIVE value. That in itself says enough.





THE TELOS.net BLOCKCHAIN WITH APPICS WILL RISE TO ASCENSION AND TAKE THE EOS MARKETCAP. WE WILL ALL be airdropped PBTC on TELOS and EOS and given https://getwombat.io wallets and create our own eosio tokens for every steemian on https://telos.alcor.exchange

Come to the new resistance hq https://t.me/hellotelos

With all due respect, if anyone threaten any bodily injury or create a domestic or otherwise terror plot. We will be reporting that to the authorities. Freedom of speech and terrorism are two different things. As intelligent humans we can distinguish between the two.

Turn your T.V. off brother

You're under fear-based mind control. What does developing new technologies have anything to do with what you said?

that dude is some kid who used to catch pokemons and now acts like a boss. he made only bad investment calls, just skip his comments

Hah nice one my fellow Welshman

I don't watch TV. I made that comment because this dude is worried about "censorship" which he wrote on a different post. Apologies for commenting on this recent post though

Blockchain's primary purpose is censorship resistance.
Sorry to hear you're learning this just now.

There is no censorship in hive blockchain and never will be.

Hard to tell, not sure there's been something worth censoring posted yet.

Hard to tell, not sure there's been something worth censoring posted yet.

I have so many questions.

Your a terrorist for reporting people for their LARP games. Hah the fact is your a butt hurt Biden supporter mad that 100million amerivans have put your name on a list as a traitor lol on the blockchain

I run my own terror suspect database TSDB on chain golos.id telos eos wax bos ethereum so many ways to capture the soul of a borg communist

thats all. Fuck u. The democrats are plotting the domestic terror with antifa and blm

Should we then report all black people who march at BLM as terrorists ? Nah man your the terrorist fkr thinking in this fuckednup way ehere daddy government with guns can go shoot people who climb through the wrong overton window

We will have a true que for idenity verification using @challengedac proof of gps co location from @citimillz in africa and his teat net of global citizens we can pay our layer 1 to verify layer . And so on

We now have proof of who voted for who

@dan flagged your nazi ass hah go dan go. Dan has . Billion plus dollars and he could open a flag war in ur account be careful hahahahaha

Enjoy being flagged by the delegated flag proxy lol

Every comment online is part of an RPG action adventure LARP live action role play. You should turn off the game if you cant handle a death threat from a video game character

wondering, @dan, what is the point of downvoting this comment?

Off topic

Bit out of touch with the community aren't you?

Never apologize for disagreeing. These spoiled kids are addicted to upvote money and need a reality check. Time to get some hivepower delegation from my friends outside hive from EOSIO and @hellotelos where a proposal system can buy hivepower with 1 million telos a month hahahaha if they all wanted to of course hahahaha

Hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha telos proposal to buy hive power to support @dan and @realdonaldtrump and @barbararedgate and @flynn hahahahaha

Because he disagreed with your nazi ass esment

Get your stormfront ass out of here go back to germany . We have homelander now

dog barks

you being an offtopic dummy maybe ?

The Hive community praises itself for resisting Justin Sun's hostile takeover by forking the Steem blockchain. But this path was difficult and was only possible thanks to the unusual unity of the witnesses and sufficient technical expertise (most of blockchain-level developers were working at Steemit at the time).

We were lucky and HIVE was listed on many crypto exchanges. Next time we might not be so lucky.

The "reset button" is often the only effective weapon in the fight against cold-blooded, deep-pocketed sharks that despise personal sovereignty, freedom and liberty.

It is essential that the reset button be in the toolbox of every application and community builder on Hive. I'm talking about base layer tokens - SMTs with Automatic Market Makers (DeFi) that would not only allow for experimenting with consensus rules, but also ensure that the community can switch to a new token when there is an urgent need to restore fairness.

Now that HIVE is traded on many exchanges, DeFi on the Hive would ensure instant decentralized convertibility of SMTs and resistance to government regulation.

@dan, since you were a key player in the original team and with your vast EOSIO experience, what do you think should be the development priorities for Hive?

To be honest, I have a lot of catching up to do before I would feel comfortable suggesting priorities. I’m grateful for a community motivated by its own priorities and not waiting on me to solve everything.

That mean you still have an idea to work with HIVE. Interesting, and I think we need that experience to go for Moon.


Read dan larimer wikipedia it says he is worrh estimated $600M and that was before btc pump. Hah he may be worrh 1 billion today and he has a lot of bitcoin

Could you inagine $100 Hive ? I can . Steem went over 8 do yeah....

If he wish to support the true decentralized community we could hope $100 HIVE


Cheers, @theguruasia You Successfully Shared 0.100 WINE With @dan.
You Earned 0.100 WINE As Curation Reward.
You Utilized 2/3 Successful Calls.


WINE Current Market Price : 0.000 HIVE

Heres the short and skinny... we got a lot of wprk to do on mobile wallets. Desktop wallets and supporting existing @dapplr app .... we need to bring your high energy eosio team mates from telos and syed grom https://bloks.io to add HIVE to his eosio block explorer then get hive steem and golos on https://ptokens.io @pnetworkdefi they need you to buy a node for 30k each they are part or bitfinex and block one gang so im sure they will gladky add PSTEEM PBTS PGOLOS and PHIVE to EOS telos and erc20 for uniswap

I have the green print . I have the green papers. We just need to add the @hellotelos https://t.me/hellotelos

Justin Sun was powerless until he colluded with exchanges. Hive has no ninja-mine; the largest holder has 3%. It takes roughly 30%+ to take out the top witnesses now. I don't even think you can buy 30% of the liquid Hive in existence if you wanted to. If someone tried to attack, it would make us all very rich; if they were successful, we would be so rich that we could easily have resources to fork again, dump the token the attacker is buying and getting a free airdropped token like last time. Many Hivers doubled their net worth during the hostile takeover, selling their Steem and keeping their Hive for free. Without the ninja-mine, such an attack (with the one-month delay in voting on a gov on a newly powered-up stake) would be nearly impossible. It's an attack I actually welcome wholeheartedly.

Indeed, Hive is one of the most decentralized blockchains in terms of HIVE ownership. And it is better protected against similar attacks thanks to the additional 30 days cooling period for witness voting.

But other attack vectors remain, which may not be as critical, but still may cause a lot of pain.

For example, an account with sufficient HP can establish censorship on Hive by downvoting posts that express certain opinions. This can be very damaging to the onboarding of new users on Hive. Sure, we can fight back using upvotes, but a protracted battle can wear out the community.

Community should be able fight this and similar attacks using a “reset button”: switching to a new token, air dropped to all the members excluding abusers. And this would not require a launch of a new blockchain. It makes attacks not just expensive, but useless.
Another major problem: increased government regulations, which may complicate convertibility of tokens. Base-layer DeFi can be offer considerable protection to projects and communities.

I really don't think censorship via downvote is even a thing. I've been at the receiving end of a whale downvotes before, just because I upvoted someone they didn't like, and I still don't agree it's censorship. Everything is still on the chain.

Some very rational, sensible and true words. Not sure about the reset of currency though. When this results in taking away value from all those good actors, the community will fall apart very quickly. I opt to enhance governance by code with governance by people. Maybe in the future 'people' can be replaced by AI. But sticking to governance by code with relatively simple rules without learning elements in it, is not enough to prevent any good intentions to become a money game.

Am surprised a little Dan didn't see this coming when creating tech to support a form of money flow and the creation of new money out of nothing as the sole model (BitShares) and then Steem and then EOS (with 4 Billion ICO).

. . . “just another financial asset” with the sole remaining innovations being provably limited supply and political neutrality.

Not exactly something to sneeze at (and don't forget about trustless immutability - if you're looking to do a refresher, this is good: “Why Does Bitcoin Have Value?”

. . . the only way to stay out of “US” jurisdiction is to perform KYC on everyone who uses your service.

What happened to BEOS?

Lastly, anyone building anything that results in economic profit and loss imposes tax consequences on their users.

Only when you sell. (And if you claim your rewards, say once a month, you greatly simplify the accounting of your "acquisition" date.)

There are good reasons for everything, or just try walking into a bank to deposit 50 grand in cash. Get my drift? That's all regulators are interested in; it's just that they're not clear on how to go about it. Did you send a comment to the SEC? They're soliciting input, asking for help.

You sound pretty dejected. Sounds more like you're asking for help rather than offering. Remember, the glass can be half full or half empty. ¡Ánimo hombre! ¡No hemos hecho más que empezar!

You are trying to bring the old way into the new age.
Kyc is a deal breaker, for most of us here.
You won't catch many fish with that bait, here.

I'm not sure you could even get most of us to take the time for eos.
This chain has too few problems.
You did a good job on it.

Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It's massively manipulated by tether (with Justin Sun the scammer and thief now printing tether on TRON) and the OG whales (those who bought it super cheap years ago) who can do whatever they want with the price. It doesn't take much to move the crypto market. Also, people still ignore the ever increasing power hungry mining process! Right now Bitcoin's power consumption is the same as Chile's! 72% of the hashrate is coming from... you guessed it, China (so much for decentralization). I don't think Bitcoin is sustainable in the long run, it's not efficient and not practical as a currency. And finally, people are rejoicing that the crypto market cap has reached one trillion. Well, this is when regulators start sharpening their tools. And they've already started with Ripple. Tether is next. And when tether implodes, it will bring down the market with it.

ETH is shit, as you said, why the hell would anyone would still be using it with its ridiculous high fees? Another cryptocurrency doomed to fail, it's a matter of time.

There are many altcoins that solve bitcoin and ethereum's problems, such as speed, energy requirements, low/no fees and scalability. I think the focus should be on them.

the only way to stay out of “US” jurisdiction is to perform KYC on everyone who uses your service.

Not always true, for all common-wealth countries and The United States of America. But this has been papered over for nearly everyone for over a generation. It still exists and it works fine but you have to make it a lifestyle. Or we can continue to just go along with it and see where it keeps taking us.

Law systems were not invented out of tyranny. As they deteriorated, each step leaves remedy and a higher jurisdiction. Freedom is still there if you build a latter. It really is all voluntary contracts, but if you don't know the tricks you default into all the rules and regulations. If you don't object, you consent. It is a hustle, and as in all hustles, you have to know how to hold your ground. Regulations is why I had to leave b1 long ago.. Nothing against b1, it was a move against a system that pulls people in by default. A group as large as b1 can go into a higher jurisdictions just as as the man and woman can establish a jurisdiction above the modern "corporation." Block producer's can establish a higher jurisdiction.

This is for The United States of America, but they have the same scam going in most of the world.

The Method and the Madness January 9, 2021 By Anna Von Reitz


Regulations is why I had to leave b1 long ago

Sounds you are determined in keeping your vision, no matter what.

Don't you think that for the near and mid-term future the idea of total freedom without regulations in the financial side of things, is utopia?

I have the gut feel the existing financial systems needs to first collabs completely before the culture of societies can handle changes we require. My worry is though: When the financial systems collapses completely (ie the Dollar or Euro has no value anymore), some powerful centralised groups will rise resulting in even more centralisation and regulations. Unless, we try to change our own attitude towards the current culture now, which includes increase of helping eachother, and decrease the importance of earning money for ourselves. Am afraid, way to few people on planet earth are ready to take such steps.

If it is a utopia, there are people of average wealth that enjoy it today. I don't know if the majority will achieve it and make it easy for all, but it is obtainable now. So, it really does not hold up anything. The thing about freedom, it really requires low fear (just healthy fear). It is actually the fear that creates most of the prison. You will not know it either until looking back, I had to look for my own prison to find it. But to really be without fear, one needs to lean how to not trespass in these over-reaching jurisdictions; that is a lifestyle.

Agree, for those who want to be financially independent, that's possible today.
Freedom: The levels of fear need to come down a lot indeed. However, I don't see the mass being ready to do so. Crypto could support freedom, however as we are seeing, its going to be more regulated, which is a no brainer to me (not that I agree with it). When something gets to a size it starts to matter in one or the other way, the authorities (and some to more individuals of society) want inclusion.

I'm glad your persistent, I'll try to be clearer. I'm only bring it up because I see a common trap out there, one I spent a lot of time in. This an an age old trick I learned: freedom is really not about anyone else, it is about me. I'm stuck if I look externally, but I'm empowered when I look within. Externally I mostly change nothing, internally I can change anything. That may seem selfish but that is the trap, it is the opposite; when we help ourselves then we have something to offer someone else (it goes in that order though). Just bring it up just in-case that helps. I could have miss-read, but I know a lot of people like that message.

I think our views are quite the same, though you use different words. Maybe even better words than I :) Let me ask you: Do you think the mass is ready anytime soon to find that freedom in themselves?

I'm expecting the near future to be a lot worse for the world but probably just fine for many (the ones that are awake and prepared and 'autonomous'). I'm pretty sure the world is just at the beginning of a major wake up period (age of Aquarius if you will) and that the bad guys are going to play more of their cards (if not all of them). We are still in the beginning, they have a lot of cards left. The masses may not win for a long time. We really need to get as off grid as we can and hope for the best. One thing for sure, the people waking up will be much larger in numbers. So, off-grid is going to have new meaning.

I don't understand tech well, but I understand people, and I saw this coming from the beginning of my involvement with crypto (as more than an observer) when I joined Steem in May 2017. All of crypto seemed to talk about the inevitability of Bitcoin blowing everyone's minds and becoming adopted by the masses and I was thinking "Well, the institutions are either going to trample this out or adopt it and force everyone to do it their way." I'm just here for the ride and to help make it as un-awful as it can be with my limited capacity

I won't be surprised in the slightest if holding a privacy coin becomes a crime in the near future....I also won't be surprised if these countries all fall apart before that happens.

The ideal is probably somewhere in between where they lose their monopoly over control but don't completely fall apart and are forced to back off a little on the individual to avoid fastening their own downfall....all as better alternatives to the nation state are simultaneously built, both intentionally and unintentionally. There will be worse alternatives popping up too, but I guess it's out job in crypto to push and make sure fewer resources flow in those directions.

Interesting post and good to see you posting on Hive,

One of the biggest issues with the EOS mainnet was the rise of Exchange BPs - effectively a cartel - that calcified in the top 20-30 block producers. Developers and community leaders suffered as a result and often positive contributions to the ecosystem struggled to earn enough block rewards to support their development projects and many were forced to move to sister chains or abandon their projects.

Is it inevitable for all DPOS chains, as suggested by Brendan Blumer, that a control group effectively always appears (BTC mining pools, vote trading, etc)? And what are some ways to that DPOS chains can maintain a healthy balance in their ecosystem and negate the formation of control groups who are only interested in profitability and maintaining their position at the top of the food chain?


I have a new consensus algo I’m playing with that eliminates voting and proof of stake while being open entry like bitcoin.

Is it a currency or a smart contract platform or something different altogether?

It requires a token, but I won’t do an ico. It doesn’t have finality (similar to bitcoin). Critically, it shouldn’t require hardforks or governance at the protocol layer.

Cool. When do you plan to tell us more about this idea, and when you plan to launch something? {not trying to push, but super curious what this will be about and when we can see the next level chain}

Peos + telos + ipfs + vig + hive with Hierarchical Randomized Governance and worker proposal NFTs and eosio 3.0 for disk bssed mira style ram.... for cheap ram and thus billions hundreds of billions of eosio main net accounts all immutable all on multiple chains all with block producers ON EACH OTHERS chains

I think you should check Nyzo, maybe this is what you want.
How the Nyzo network works https://nyzo.net/getting-started-04.html
No ASIC, No GPU, No stake .Running a ipv4 node to become a Nyzo verifier, and verify blocks.
And real DAO governance (verifier voting), not whale governance (more money more power).

This sounds similar to the proyect of @andrarchy https://www.koinos.io/

Is there any possibility that you would work together ?

Thank you Dan.

We've done a lot of work along similar lines from the consensus algo to removing hardforks/governance at the protocol layer. We should chat.

Eosio independent main net called TELOS had built in rules from start and prevented any collusion https://telos.net and check out the constitution and telos amend and telos WPS .... ITS A DIGITAL DC

Was just thinking of building a system on peakd.com to track our financial transactions on Hive for our oen tax purposes and talking to a tax accountant about the initial model of what something like that would need to look like to help us and then possibly othetes.

Maybe others even extend it beyond hive and hbd later but if you or anyone else wanted to see it let us know what it would look like in your eyes.

That would be an awesome addition to peakd wallet. If you could somehow allow users to run a report on their earning through posts/curation etc with the $/£ value of amount at that time then it would help a lot with the taxation concerns. Just holding stake increases your HP so that in itself becomes taxable if a user needs to sell and declare.

Would it suffice to use a hive-usd value per week or even per month ... that does make it much easier than per instance to run a report for users who would want to use a potential product like that.


Holding stake isn't the taxable even its the selling of it ... maybe it's even the powering down? But I guess people do get interest from the blockchain from holding stake but that usually comes in the form of more stake if I'm not mistaken.
The question becomes do you count stake increasing events? Or just liquid token increasing events?

If so maybe @dan would consider changing settings to getting rewarded in HP only because some tax accountants would argue staked hive isn't a taxable event like getting liquid rewards. And when you power down is the taxable event.

Probably an average per week will be ok but if not possible then the month is also OK - those who've been on the chain for years will probably need historic figures and values if they earned an amount above the capital gains threshold and didn't power down.

In the UK, we need to know the fiat price of crypto at the time of receipt, even if we didn't pay for it - called "fair market value". So with staking, that becomes important even though there's nothing specifically mentioned in our government tax guidelines, better to take the conservative approach! Say your stake grows by 10 HIVE per day through staking and you have 100k HIVE, when it comes to selling it, you need to account for how you got that extra 10 HIVE if you haven't bought it. It's a minefield!

As it's all HIVE, we'd only get taxed when it comes to exchanging HIVE for another crypto or fiat in the UK, I don't know how it works in other countries. So earning purely in HP wouldn't be a taxable event, converting HBD to HIVE would be, powering down wouldn't be... as far as I know.

Also I'm not a tax consultant/accountant, I've just studied the topic and this is my understanding so far so!

Plz be careful. The moment you add such feature to PeakD, you basically say to the regulators: I agree with you HIVE post and curation income is real income and taxable for income taxes. I prefer tools build in eg Excel and query eg HiveSQL. Meaning tools not intyegrated with UIs or wallets, but simply offline tools.

Holding stake is in many countries taxable under captial tax.

Not sure what the rules are in your country, but in mine HIVE post and curation income could be seen as regular taxable income. Although, we have a little loophole in our laws. When income is received from a hobby, that income is not taxed to income tax laws. The question is than: Are HIVE activities classified as Job or as Hobby? I have my own opinion. It's Hobby; since in my case, I have other income streams that pays for my living expenses.

Had to read that twice. Reality check.

You brought me into a hopeless pit now...

Is the political battle the only one worth fighting or is it possible to create a freedom empowering technology? I hope you have something in mind.

Edit - Just read again one of your previous posts:

The ultimate may be a combination of federated ZeroNet-like services. Freedom loving information seekers will need to take on the responsibility of running nodes on their own computers.

Should people running nodes be incentivized or not? Do you think this can scale to mass adoption?

Don’t despair. There is hope.

I must admit to being a bit suspicious about your motives for starting to post on Hive, but that was a really interesting post, and I have followed you to see more.

A post explaining your motivations would be of interest too!

Why is another person's motives your issue? (asking as a friend)

lol... Seriously though, he wrote his thoughts for whatever reason, either you appreciate them or not.

Why do people act like Hive is something you have to marry to use and be loyal... It's a blockchain not your girlfriend. :)

You of all people (another old timer with a long history on Steemit) know why I have reason to ask!

Every person I interact with, I do my best to mentally assemble all the info I have on them (yes including you) - I'd be surprised if you weren't doing the same.

For example, your default position is to avoid taking a firm side, and to almost always post as if you are equally open to two opposing positions. Sometimes that may include buy and sell or Steemit and Hive.

I often watch that perplexed - for example when I'm trading cryptos I say nothing until I have bought, and then I'm 100% bull. Until I decide it's almost time to sell, when I go quiet until I've sold. Once sold I'm 100% bear, because I actively want the coin to crash so I can buy it back cheap. I know we are all just specs of dust on Hive and we make almost no difference to the market, but that is my psychology.

With Steemit I started out very keen, but after three years I was mad as hell with the site and actually came to hate it. And part of what I was mad at was the people who originally set it up, as I believe they pulled several scams. So that is why I want to ask questions.

You are still posting on Steemit and I have never understood your motivation for doing so. The site is a joke, and it's owned by a bunch of commies. There has to be something I don't know about your motivations, but I haven't asked because I know you are under a lot of stress. (Yes, I really did go back and look at Steemit purely to see what you were posting. Are you the only person on there not posting in Korean?)

But as you have raised the point - what is it with you and Steemit?

As for your description of why you are asking I get that.

As for why I post on Steem? Why not? I took the majority of my stake out on both platforms. Left a bit in both "Just in case" Steem is popular in the Asian markets and they are likely crypto adopters they have different freedom and social expectations than we do.

I'm not actively involved with day to day politics or decisions on either.

The them or us narrative was exactly like the left vs the right. Sounds nice but no one is really that clean in the reality.

I always felt on Steemit that you might have some inside info.

What do you post for? I post for free expression, but Steemit opposes that

And I go to a site to see good content, but Steemit now has nothing but the most appalling shitposts I have ever seen anywhere on the entire internet. If there is a worse social media site I have never seen it.

In my book, anything centrally run is verboten, so Steemit is 100% no go

Ultimately I don't give a toss what is popular in the Asian market - they are my social antithesis so why would I?

I notice you haven't mentioned anything about your tendency to avoid taking sides - I would have been surprised if you had, but I'm raising it again because I'm curious and annoying like that - not artificial left vs right divisions, but essential this is better than that decision making.

I'm of the opinion that different things are better in different circumstances. Having a preference isn't the same as having to take sides.

I like that I can see both sides on most issues. I actually work on it. I make no apologies for that. Every war has 2 sides that are convinced they are 100 percent right and the other side is evil. That is almost never true if you can see the other perspective.

I could go into a bunch of details about why I was so frustrated by how the split went, but it's over and it just pisses everyone off. If you want to discuss it further it will have to be on discord.

I post on both to stay in touch with what is happening in crypto, in some cases for a safe place to post with out harassment, which I got quite a bit of after the split. Love letters from Bernie and such. Just didn't feel worth it. Mostly though it sounds like I view the platform differently. No one has squashed my ability to communicate there or express... But I was flagged for months here. Who stepped up to fix those situations? What was my crime? Disagreeing verbally? wow.

The full extent of my "inside information" was being in the secret slack for a bit and I have a discord channel we talked about Steem/Hive for hours for the first several years. I went to all the MSP shows, and basically supported anything I could that was Steem related. I never had any amazing inner connections or anything.

I briefly worked with Ned and others on the foundation, but it was a huge waste of time that I regret. There is your mystery.

There is a long held theory that social media sites were all set up by the CIA as mind control operations. I'm sure Facebook is Mossad/CIA controlled. The elephant in the room is who set up Steemit and how much of that connects to Hive.

When designing things - everything from websites to bicycles (just a couple of my old personal interests), the whole process is "is this better than that?" - every step requires a choice, a side, a decision.

When people "HODL" a crypto they are refusing to make the decision to buy or to sell, and if they always refuse to take a bet on one side or the other we end up with a totally dysfunctional system. And we are in one now.

Even doing a picture we have to decide if one colour is better than another.


PS - You know there is chat on Hive now?

I've always thought having to switch to Discord was bogus. It's not encrypted yet but it works OK.

Ned's girlfriend was Bitcoin... Guess the master taught the pupil {LOL} 🤣🤣🤣

I mean...it is an open protocol. He could use it...or not.

As long as he's not here to be unpleasant or causing trouble, I don't think anyone would be too bothered.

He certainly can, and he is also the person who knows all the darkest secrets on Steemit, stuff that was discussed out of sight for years, and his name was always in the family!

There are some things from those discussions that also relate to Hive that I am still looking to find any clues on.

I'm dropping a hint here because I'm fishing for info...

maybe we should meet up with dan and ask some questions

but I guess he can only TALK BIG on some internet forums

Hi @dan

I love this...

Our “profit” is not measured in dollars, but in “freedom”.

... even if we all don't have an answer or a clear plan how we can achieve this freedom, as regulations always try to kill it!

How does IBC play into these calculations? There is already some diversity in eosio instances but with many plug and playable governance options and nice socialising between chain instances we could iterate quickly and find the communities that we want to be a part of.

Appreciate your honest thoughts, Dan. I would just like to say one thing.

Many of us have a far lower level definition of freedom than you do. For many of us, freedom is not being enslaved to a mortgage or other forms of debt. That's simply how the world is for 99% of people.

Money may not be an issue to you - god knows you've made plenty.

But that is why EOS token holders want the token price to rise. We want our own personal freedom. Hopefully enough to free our families and friends too.

I for one did not invest in the EOS ICO for the ideologies you have talked about.

I have always been clear what my goal was. And the good news is that block.one is in the best position to succeed in the regulatory framework.

Block one fish
Block two

Block red fish and the blue

🟣 https://telos.net 👿

his dark materials theme plays as Dan the Lion Polar Bear King Steps into the halls of Hive

Wow! Great! more big tech mafia corporatism!

Like most people, I was quite surprised by your announcement.

But it is starting to make sense to me given the diverging direction between Block.One, the Voice team and the values you stood for.

It baffled everyone when it was first announced that Voice would have KYC, placing the most severe of restrictions on a platform that is meant to enable free expression.

Not to mention the fact that Voice is entirely a closed sourced project running on a private chain, able to censor content and delete accounts as the executives saw fit.

It seemed like everything you were fighting against, not for.

I'm happy that we did not give up building Discussions.app, a multi-chain, open-source social networking platform on the EOSIO protocol. It did feel a bit crazy at the time, but we were proven correct.

Voice is not the free speech platform people thought you would bring into the world.

Nor was it the catalyst that would bring EOS into the forefront of the blockchain industry.

I'm pleasantly surprised to have found you back here on Hive, it rebuffs, at least a little, the idea that you are someone who abandons projects and their community.

Well its great that someone in your position is having a value system that is not just about $$$ .... at least as your claim in your writing here .... but its the results that are mesured .... not just words.... one of the result for block.one is having a lot of bitcoin from an ico .... I cant speak about the tech itself, not qualified

Steem, now hive, has been trough some rough path, but its more decentralized now then beffore, although not ideal

A result that will be a "success" for online freedom would be to make it easy (granma can do it) to make a "self custody" apps/social but still be a part of somethig

A result that will be a "success" for online freedom would be to make it easy (granma can do it)

Something I don't see often. Something I always try to bring across. "Even when one thinks its already simple to use some service, the service shall still be 10 times easier to use", is a statement I most of the time use. The problem with crypto projects: They are all way too complex still for grandma, and therefor for the mass.

That’s why nobody sells bitcoin, at the least then it means total loss of your privacy and at its current state it is not much of a use as a Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System, and it never will be. This is by design from the current developers, not by Satoshi himself.

“ In theory, token holders are supposed to vote in producers that provide the most value to the network. In practice, token holders vote in people who pay them kickbacks.”

Dan I think it is irresponsible to generalize like that. If token holders are shortsighted and lack a vision - they will indeed vote for the voter kickbacks. It all depends on who exactly the largest token holders are. If I were you I would try to launch a chain with original EOSs mission, but make sure that the largest holders are not btc mining speculators and government apologists like BB, but people with conviction who would support your vision of securing life, liberty and property.

And how didn’t you think about regulations before ? You were on your third blockchain and you didn’t think about these issues ? You have no one to blame then you , and now you run away after having become rich whit our money building only things that can’t work, while we pay you. Do you think it is correct towards the community ? I think you should at least fight to help us whit our investment which we made counting on you !!! I hope regulators will catch you and put you in jail !!!

This is why I decline rewards when I post on Hive..

hehe. For a minute i thought that now your unemployed, you had to start posting again :)

good to see ya.


I think we shall move away from formula's and get feelings back in place.... D*mn hard to implement that by code though 🤨

Our “profit” is not measured in dollars, but in “freedom”

It's easy to say that when your pockets are loaded.

John Lennon was kind of the same. Dreaming and preaching after he financially succeeded with the Beatles.

But please don't get me wrong. I'm not judging you nor I envy you.
You're a genius and you did a great job with your projects.

Just want you to know that 99% of people are struggling and stumbling and have different priorities in their life. Check the Venezuelan guys on Leofinance for instance. The monthly salary is $2. I'm sure they put profit in dollars on top of their list.

Again. Please stay around and engage with the community here.

If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

and what about the freedom to build wealth oneself?
To be allowed to improve one's own situation?

without the agreeing of authority, without asking to permission to survive?

So you want some weird freedom but if I want to JUST BE ABLE TO SURVIVE - I'm against freedom?
wtf are you even talking?

I think you should read some more books first before telling others what to do if one "love wealth better than liberty"

“The argument for liberty is not an argument against organization, which is one of the most powerful tools human reason can employ, but an argument against all exclusive, privileged, monopolistic organization, against the use of coercion to prevent others from doing better.”
― Friedrich August von Hayek

It breaks my heart to watch as a cloud of censorship and regulation descend over a technology that many of us hoped would free us from the international banking cartels. We all cheer as the price of Bitcoin reaches new all time highs, but I cry as the vision of what Bitcoin promised to be fades away.

To be honest, it's not a good idea to get emotional about it at this point in time. Now it's time to be calm and rational in order to analyze the current situation so we can find practical solutions.

The regulatory and financial development has been absolutely clear for several years. The direction has been completely expected, the only unknown is the speed how fast it happens.

If people haven't done yet anything to counter it, they cannot really complain. They had several years to do something about it. But instead everyone focused on completely unproductive stuff like "liquidity mining" or whatever is the buzzword these days.

I'm not sure if it's anymore possible to create a real economy outside of the state regulators. Crypto folks have had years to design, test and implement new solutions, but all that time was completely wasted. If you want to create real solutions today, you'll have a hard time. The opposition is several magnitudes stronger now than it was ten years ago.

That's why I'm inclined to solutions which don't fight against the governments, but instead look for any loopholes in the current environment.

If you openly fight against the government, it will fight back. Because it's much stronger than you, it can destroy you. But if you openly indicate that you are not opposed to the government and regulations, but look for solutions that minimize the harmful effects of the government, you might find something that works reasonably well.

With that context what can we do to make EOS “successful”? There is no single answer to that question because we all have different definitions of “success” and the paths to “success” can head in opposite directions.

Can anyone answer the question: "Why does EOS exist?"

What's the purpose of EOS? If nobody knows that, then any kind of development will be very hard. How do you know what do you have to do today, if you don't know where the hell you are going to?

This is why any project that wants to make a meaningful change must first define the reason for its existence. If it doesn't have a shared vision, it cannot get anything done. Everyone who is involved might be doing a great job, but none of that matters if the work is not aligned so that it pushes the project consistently to the same direction.

You might have top class people working on it, but if those people are pulling the project to the opposite directions, it won't go anywhere! That's why the vision must be clear. If someone doesn't share the vision, he must exit. A well-aligned and small team is always much more efficient than a huge non-aligned community.

When you can clearly explain what's the vision, you can know what are the goals. You know what are the yearly goals. When you know those, you can derive quarterly and monthly goals. From those, you'll get weekly and daily goals.

It's a sign of a well-designed system when you can derive your daily tasks from the long-term goal.

When everyone in the team knows and agrees with the long-term goal, they can work very effectively towards it. Day after day. That's how shit gets done.


Wasn't that Edison, or did he steal that too? :)

🤣🤣🤣 most likely 🤣🤣🤣

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