Proposal to make HBD interest payable only to savings accounts

During a recent discussion in the mattermost dev channel for Hive, @therealwolf suggested that Hive should have a staking mechanism for “mostly liquid” funds. Currently, Hive only provides staking rewards for vested Hive (hive power) and it takes 13 weeks to fully unstake hive power. His comment was mostly made in the context of an argument for lowering the unstaking time for Hive power, but the discussion in this case took a turn towards another idea that’s also been around for a while.

Staking Hive dollars (HBD)

During the discussion, @smooth pointed out that Hive already has a liquid staking mechanism: Hive dollars (HBD), which pay an interest rate set by the median value voted on by witnesses. But currently Hive dollars pay a relatively low interest rate of 3% (low relative to other crypto staking opportunities), so it’s not a particularly competitive staking opportunity right now.

It’s been suggested that this interest rate should be increased to something more substantial (e.g. 10-20%) once the upward side of the peg for HBD has been stabilized(hardfork 25 includes a Hive→HBD conversion operation that is designed to stabilize the upward side of the peg).

Using savings accounts as the staking mechanism for HBD

To make staking of HBD more familiar to the average cryptocurrency investor, it seems likely that it would make sense to make a change to the current interest payment mechanism: instead of all HBD receiving interest, only HBD in savings accounts would receive interest. In this case there would be a clear “staking” and “unstaking” mechanism (moving the HBD in and out of the user’s savings account). And the unstaking time is relatively short: 3 days.

There’s also a couple of other important benefits to this proposed change:

  • it encourages movement of HBD from exchanges to wallet savings accounts which lowers the risk profile for users
  • exchanges won’t be receiving interest payments just for holding their customer’s HBD in custody (unless the exchange puts it into a savings account, of course, but in that case it seems likely that they would have to offer some staking reward as part of such a change in order to avoid looking bad in the eyes of their customers).
  • not having to pay interest to every HBD holder means that the interest payments can be “concentrated” on the stakers without necessarily increasing the amount of overall interest being paid.

This proposed change is also not a new idea, it’s been discussed in the past, on and off chain, for a long time. And to my knowledge, the idea has generally always received a positive reception from participants in those discussions.

As the change seems pretty simple and so far only has supporters, I decided to make this post to propose including this change into hardfork 25, since HF25 will have the prerequisite stabilization of the peg for HBD that can make this staking mechanism potentially attractive.

Costs of the proposed change

As planned, the change to only pay HBD interest to savings accounts is relatively straightforward, and I’m estimating it can be completed in about two days (including allowing time for creating tests for the new behavior). So the implementation cost is very low.

Today was the date for the planned code freeze for HF25, so including this change would push the code freeze date into early next week. But there was nothing magical about today’s date for the code freeze, and I think it’s a small cost to push the code freeze date into next week.

Computationally, I don’t expect any increases in CPU or memory usages as a result of the change. In fact, it’s possible that it will be negligibly faster than it was before to compute interest payments.

Feedback wanted

Personally, given the low cost of this change and its potential benefits, I’m in favor of making this change in hardfork 25. But my main concern is that it is a proposed change that is late in the development cycle for hardfork 25 (in the best case, the hardfork could take place in as little as 1.5 months).

So, while I have no technical concerns about introducing this change this late, I want to be sure that most people are OK with what might be considered a “last minute change”. If you have either a positive or negative opinion on the proposed change itself, or the idea of including it into hardfork 25 versus at a later date, please leave a comment.

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Yes. I believe that this offers a very nice middle-ground for both HIVE and HBD. By offering a high HBD APR, we can potentially draw more investors in and maybe even go further by encouraging exchanges to offer savings accounts for HBD to their customers, safe interest in their savings account. I am all in for this change to happen in HF25.

Honestly, if the HF25 wasn't this close, I'd like to also see high HIVE interest in savings. Whereas people who would like to receive HIVE and potentially profit from the increase in HIVE price (and would work beautifully hand-in-hand with HBD savings) but have no connection with the governance (if they would like to participate in it, they can always power up their HIVE, longer unstaking, but able to participate) as some people just want the profits or the benefits that HIVE brings and have no interest in governance. Same as HBD, it could potentially lead to various exchange listings for interest which would attract even more investors.

In my opinion, those two are only good things.

I'd like to also see high HIVE interest in savings

I agree, if for one reason: Incentive To Get HIVE Off Exchanges

Edit:

Ok, here are some other reasons. It would be less confusing for casual users. Which saving accounts earn interest? All of them. There would be less pressure on buying HBD just to benefit from savings interest. Why buy HBD and put it in savings when I can just hold HIVE in savings?

Completely agree - getting both off exchanges should be the main reason for this and do feel a higher % would definitely help , having both savings earn would be a good one too, maybe a longer withdrawal period on the hive savings instead of 3 days would be helpful too. In terms of HBD I feel like someone who is willing to stake their HBD in savings is really not going to mind a 3 day wait compared to some of the other unstaking protocols out there. (My whine about ATOM comes to mind their “unstaking” which is really just undelegation is so long and costly, compared to HIVE a simple three day wait is a godsend)

Yes! I like the idea of HIVE interest. To encourage constant holding by individuals and not exchanges, a time component should be added to the HIVE interest. For instance, it should take X amount of time without withdrawing from the HIVE savings account to get up the the full Y percent interest rate. Moving any amount of HIVE out of the saving account resets that time. This will encourage people hold to get the full interest rate. It also makes it harder for exchanges to stake and pass that interest on to their users because presumably they would need to move HIVE out and that will constantly reset their time to get the full interest. Something like that. Just a thought.

Edit: this time component could be long, say 12-26 weeks. It would force people to really think before pulling HIVE out but if needed, they could pull it out fairly quickly.


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I think this is a great change. With this, we can attract more investors. Once they start investing for the interest rates they will gradually understand the ecosystem and then start investing more or bring their investor friends as well.

If we are going to go with this option, as you said, I would be happy to see an increased Interest rates as well. 10-20% will be a reasonable one because there are competitive options outside for stable coins. I personally will stop converting my HBD to USDT to earn good APR outside and keep it inside the chain.

It will also be nice if the FAQ page is updated to align with all these new changes. I guess it is the task to be done in the front ends. Right now I direct all my friends only to the FAQ page to get some idea about Hive. If this information is also there in the FAQ page, they will at least join us as an investor even though they have no big plans to do blogging.

I'm in favor for HF25. Although it is a late change I consider the impact of the change very low since it is just disabling something that is already there (paying interest on liquid). That being said I do still support the proposed effort and potential small schedule delay to implement additional tests and review. While this change is likely to be relatively simple and low risk, I wouldn't be surprised (and it wouldn't be the first time) if some existing flaws or gotchas were uncovered in existing code that hasn't been worked on in years.

Yes, we already found that interest is paid a bit differently than one would intuitively expect. When I first proposed this to our devs yesterday, one immediately asked if the change would include rationalizing the interest payment method more, but of course I had to disappoint him, as there would be too much work involved.

What about doing the same/similar thing for the HIVE savings wallet that prints out HBD as interest?

Much more complicated to implement. On the eve of a code freeze I'd be against, but in a future release it should be considered.

yep, I get that - just putting it out on this post as it is related. It would be decent to see how the HBD works and perhaps get some learning for the more complicated version.

I am for this change. However can we ditch the 3% APR that all 3 coins currently gets (just for holding) and put it towards active staking. I would like to see the interest rate on HBD set at lower rate then people could get by powering hive and curating. Perhaps 8-12% range. If it is truly stable then people wont need crazy interest rates to offset the risk of fluctuating base tokens.

How will the staking rewards be determained? Just a % set by witnesses?
Having some fixed amount (inflation) going to that reward pool seems interesting.... if not a lot of users stake hbd, the interest will be higher and oposite ... need to look a bit more in details about the numbers...

It would use the same mechanism as now, which is % set by witnesses. The only difference in practice would NOT paying it on liquid. That's what makes the code change very simple, since it is just disabling part of the existing functionality, not adding anything new.

I like the idea if there's also a lending market attached to it so that savings HBD can be the risk free rate and those looking for HBD can also borrow some at various rates set by users so there a risk free rate and a P2P rate!

There's an opportunity cost for locking up for 3 days and if their are various escrows you can lock into to get better returns then it makes the 3 day less of a pain

If there was also a burn fee to break the 3 days to 24 hours that would be cool too!

Yes, the interest rate for HBD is set by median of witness votes. It's too close to HF to consider making any change here.

I think people's will be very interested to have some savings too and get paid back from its be the key, whatever the interest is not the fact.

I think stacking on hbd with a interest rate 3%(proposed), will be helpful for the small investors who neither liquid nor exchange with other alt coin. That make them turn into real investors.

this seems like a good proposal to me. I don't think anyone who is invested in the platform is going to be opposed to the time it takes to get funds out of savings

What if the person is holding HBD just to buy hive when he gets the right price? He won't get interest since he is not holding em in savings? I believe everyone deserves to get interest for their HBD irrespective of their savings. Just my opinion.

It only takes a couple of days to stake or unstake.

I believe it's 3 days. And days and even hours matters in crypto world. Price goes extremely high and quite low in less span bro.

That's the whole point of the staking to make it less volatile. No one stopping you keeping it liquid.

Probably people sell their HBD for other cryptos but people like me like reinvent HBD in the same blockchain for HIVE. I can't immediately buy hive if I put my hbd in savings when I see good price for hive to buy. So, people like me deserve interest since we are reinvesting it in the community itself. Just my opinion.

You can't have both no staking time delay cost and get staking rewards otherwise what is the point of the staking rewards. My opinion obviously but inflation should be a reward for doing something (securing the network, undertaking proof of brain ie posting and curating, or locking up tokens)

Then don't stake.

As mentioned, the current interest rate is essentially meaningless relative to the current volatility (to traders who currently speculate on the rather meaningless of HBD once it goes much over $1 on the markets). But this change is being proposed in concert with the change that is planned to peg HBD. In other words, if the new operation to maintain the peg works correctly, there won't be many people speculating on the price of HBD any more and hence little risk of missing a speculative opportunity.

But if you're just arguing against staking rewards as a "good thing" in DeFi, I'm not the one to defend the concept. I just recognize it is a popular one in cryptocurrency now and a lot of Hive stakeholders would like to see similar functionality here in Hive.

In that case it would be better if we could move funds from savings to current much faster, rather than waiting for 3 days. Idk much but I do want to see defi like staking in Hive. 🙂

The best time to buy HIVE is all the time ;D

😳 yeah true that but no of Hive you get is matters. I'm a small fish, I can't afford potential loss. All I do is wait for the low price and buy it, it also helps hive price to move high when price gets low.

At first I was against this since if you consider your account where you were to hold a significant amount of HBD secure enough for interest or in case a price spike you'd want the funds to be used as fast as possible, but with the Hive->HBD conversion coming up in the next HF which will hopefully peg the price of HBD once and for always to $1 I think this is a decent change for both security of regular users and to not give interest to exchanges.

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One more thing to discuss is the way users claim the interest. It's kinda confusing. Can we possibly make it more user-friendly or easy to understand?

I think we can add a timer on the front-ends and display the next possible claim action + accumulated interest so far. Something like:

Accumulated interest is 10.000 HBD,
Paid in 20 days

And if it's possible to claim, add a claim button where the user sends 0.001 HBD to himself.

Front ends can compute and display the pending interest easily. Slightly clever ones could even display it dynamically where you can see your interest ticking up in real time.

Is this implemented on any front ends currently?

Not to my knowledge. HBD has only been paying interest at all for a month or two, so it hasn't been something that would have been useful before that.

Makes sense, something like that would be super useful (saves me trips to hive blocks with a calculator 😂) would probably help even more HBD come off exchanges if they can see exactly they’ve earned by having it off there

We added the percentage when HBD started getting a percentage and I have added a preliminary ticket in case this ends up actually happening and people pay more attention to it. And i suppose a button that when it's "harvestable" transfers your hbd somewhere and transfers it back triggering an actual payment. Something like that @smooth ?

Looks good. I believe the above suggestion of transferring 0.001 HBD to yourself would probably work to harvest.

Actually, on second thought, since we're talking about HBD in savings here, you can't just transfer (since it isn't liquid), you would have to deposit another 0.001 HBD into savings, but then you would have to have 0.001 HBD liquid to do that.

So I'm not really sure what is the best way to harvest.

I don't see it happening in this HF but perhaps in a future HF adding a special op to claim interest in savings would be the way to go.

unstake .001hbd ? Seems like a small price to pay to have an action go through.

That would be brilliant, I agree with jarvie that it’s a small price to pay for your sweet sweet interest in the meantime

Wicked I was excited when I saw it pop up was very good quick work, I was thinking also maybe a ticker that is Ledger/Coinbase esque that shows how must interest you’ve earned so far - that would be a seriously sick feature that would make sense to a “investor” - would it be to difficult to implement ?

IF the price peg is helped by the upcoming HF and people start putting money into the wallet AND witnesses decide to increase the rate to a part that would make people excited then we could do it. Right now it's not worth doing because it is presently silly to keep HBD and not sell it at the high rate.

First I didn't see the "pending interest" on any API but now I see there is "Hbd seconds". I think it can be computed to the HBD value. Great.

Yes hbd_seconds and hbd_seconds_last update. You need to look at the current balance and elapsed time since last update and add that to hbd_seconds.

I'm for that but please don't go crazy with 20% interest rates. I already feel that there is a lot of disregard to risk with respect to HBD supply in general.

I prefer stablecoins that are backed by collateral from investors who know what they are doing instead of being backed by everyone holding hive.

At first I thought that "the bank is paying interest on the bank account balance. Why Hive should be different?"

But then I read the post.

it encourages movement of HBD from exchanges to wallet savings accounts which lowers the risk profile for users

Other than one or two tests, I currently do not remember using the savings account. I had no reason. But this would give one.

exchanges won’t be receiving interest payments just for holding their customer’s HBD in custody (unless the exchange puts it into a savings account, of course, but in that case it seems likely that they would have to offer some staking reward as part of such a change in order to avoid looking bad in the eyes of their customers).

Why are the exchanges receiving interest payments for holding their customer's HBD in custody in the first place?
This sounds like stealing! The interest payments are belong to the customers, because they own the HBD, not the exchanges.

The exchanges have accounts just like regular users. They get interest for their liquid HBD at the moment.

https://peakd.com/@bittrex/wallet

They already get 3% APR for holding them in liquid; which most people don't realize.

That's between the exchanges and their customers. In earlier days of crypto, all rewards from PoS coins was kept by exchanges, but over time the trend has been for exchanges to offer it as a service to the customers (sometimes taking a cut, but not keeping all of it).

It would be interesting to have a motivation to use the savings feature in the wallet. I've been looking at it since 2017 and never used it. For my little account, it has always made more sense (and cents) to convert to Hive and power up. But I do like to keep a few HBD on hand for games and things like that.

Would the unstaking HBD take place all at once, after 3 days? It's not like a faster version of powering down HP is it?

Yes it is all at once after three days. All meaning the amount you request to withdraw from savings, doesn't have to be the whole balance.

The entire amount specified is unstaked at the end of the 3 days, there's no intermediate payouts.

Welcome addition in my opinion. HDB staking will encourage people to take the token away from exchanges and keep it in this blockchain. I do request a slightly higher interest though. For most LP 30-50% staking return is almost standard.

On a side note; can we have a hive Liquidity Pool on BSC or somewhere else? Even if we don't agree with their concept it will help with our brandname. Just a thought.

For most LP 30-50% staking return is almost standard.

Also this is not an LP there is no fee money coming in from trades i think it unwise to compare it to a LP pool... but to other staking locations.

Besides, There are a high quanity of LP pools with high rates but there is a much higher volume of LP itself that is much lower.

Yeah, right. But in our case it can come from inflation. A segment of what goes to DHF. Its our call, we can redirect inflation whichever way we like, as long as it is reasonable and make people interested in investing in us.

I like the plan. Since watching many 2nd layer tokens have majority of tokens staked it appears to make the left that is circulating drop in value. I am not sure as this seems counterintuitive since lower supply should mean higher demand. But thinking deeper it maybe more related to strong hands versus weak hands. The ones who stake their tokens are the strong hands and believe in the token will prosper in the future. While the liquidity comes from mostly users who sell just for the sake of being able to do so.

Basically if there is better incentive for users to stake HBD by locking it in savings I would predict it will have a beneficial effect to lowering the price of HBD to unity. Strong hands keep their HBD while weak ones will sell them and sell them at any price, which is usually lower. (Also extending time it takes to unstake the HBD inside savings would reinforce that limitation of someone trying trade the price swings of HBD.) Thanks.

Let's either pay interest on HBD or not.
Who needs a savings account?

The effort is to bring HBD off of the exchanges and avoid paying the exchanges themselves and enriching them but giving it to the users so you need an action like staking.

What keeps exchanges from moving part of their HBD holdings into savings accounts as well? They already work with different walltes for HIVE.

The thing @blocktrades said in the post.

I feel

unless the exchange puts it into a savings account, of course, but in that case it seems likely that they would have to offer some staking reward as part of such a change in order to avoid looking bad in the eyes of their customers

is a big assumption. Especially when we use it as a tool to control the HBD peg. It might fluctuate widely. Do you think exchanges even want to try to explain this added complexity to their users? Do these users care?

To me it sounds like a thing for users to do... to make statements and educate people. If anything I'm almost hoping one exchange does it so tons and tons of tweets and blogs get written to make people around the internet aware of what hive is doing.

If the promise of high interest on a stable coin doesn't make you withdraw it to your own wallet, what does?
Users are perfectly able to ape into all kinds of farming operations. If they can't be bothered to create their own wallet for extra staking rewards, what does?

We are now trying to make life hard for the few exchanges that even bother to list HBD.

Not having to deal with HBD interest arguably makes things easier on exchanges, not harder. Now they don't have to be concerned about users claiming that the exchange is "keeping" their interest. As someone who's interacted with people who've operated exchanges, I can tell you they are generally happy to avoid such headaches.

A couple of weeks ago I ran a script to see they HBD interest payouts in March, what I noticed was the those who benefited most and received highest payouts were exchanges like upbit and Bittrex, and hive.fund.

At first I wasn't sure if it was a good idea to paying exchanges for holding user funds. But then I realized that it can be a good incentive for more exchanges to list HBD. Currently, Binance only lists Hive and not HBD. If they knew they can add revenue in HBD interest, they might consider adding HBD as well. Also this could be something to convince exchanges like Coinbase to list Hive and HBD as this extra revenue may cover their costs of listing and bring profits. Upbit made 3700 HBD in March in interest, which is $7000+ in USD.

Also, hive.fund earning some interest can be beneficial for everybody. More funds to pay for proposals.

On one hand incentives to move HBD from exchanges to owner wallets sounds interesting, as ideally we would want HBD to serve as a currency on daily transactions. On the other hand incentive to lock them up for 3 days will defeat the purpose of making it a daily use currency.

I would suggest tiered interest. Maybe 3% or whatever witnesses set the parameter to for liquid HBD, and double that for HBD in Savings.

I would even go further and suggest similar mechanism for liquid and savings Hive.

On a separate note, lowering power down time from 13 weeks to 4 weeks is needed.

Surly the hive fund could be set up to stake whatever its not using and just release the required funds for each forecast daily payout?

Since hive.fund is a special internal account that nobody has direct access to, I don't think it can stake and unstake.

You could put automated code in a HF so it did it based on estimated proposal requirements. I don't think it would be impossible but I will leave it to someone else to determine if feasible.

Could theoretically be done but I don't see that happening in this upcoming release.

For now if this proposal is implemented the hive.fund will just not get any interest. There are arguments either way as to whether that is desired, but it will have to be worked out later whether to make a further change.

Thanks for replying.

I would be for a 4 or 6 week powerdown for HP; governance issues can be dealt with in other ways. 13 weeks is an eternity in cypto.

I agree, 13 weeks is too long.

BlockFi just responded on Twitter. I tweeted before I read this post earlier today.

blockfi.png

it happens if things become short-term decisions. Long Term everything should pay by market and not by network. IN my comment i write longer about :)

I think this clear demarcation between an staking and an unstaking mechanism would be really good. 3 days to would be really good and you can decide whether you wanna stake and then get more percentages. think the idea of ​​increasing the percentages is really good.
would definitely agree if you could manage it well despite the relatively late date :)

Wait, wut? Yields on HBD savings?!?

I'm all for this.

@therealwolf You have my vote.

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Might it discourage people from becoming co-owners of the chain by holding Hive Power? It can potentially have governance impacts if it reduces the number of HP holders.

I don't expect it to reduce the number of HP holders.

If I had to speculate on the most likely impact, I would guess it might encourage some HBD recipients (e.g. rewards from posts, etc) to stake the HBD for interest and keep it on chain rather than selling it as fast as possible. But that's just a guess as to a possible impact.

I think the stakeholders that are asking for this are mainly trying to create an attractive investment opportunity for cryptocurrency investors outside of the current Hive community.

I personally can say that your speculation is right. I had been converting my HBD to USDT recently and moved it to other exchanges to get a stable APR. If this feature can be brought inside the blockchain itself with better interest rates, then it will be awesome and I will keep the funds in the savings inside the chain itself. 3% right now is far too low because there are other exchanges that provide huge interests.

Sounds like an interesting idea that will shine more light to the DeFi capabilities of Hive. My only concern is, how this would affect HBD supply and debt. If too many users stake HBD, this could become a problem and lead to HBD and subsequently Hive inflation. So a dynamic calculation would be needed to limit the interest rate / inflation rate of HBD savings based on the number of HBD staked overall and the HBD/Hive debt ratio. If debt ratio is exceeded APY should go to zero to limit the inflation.

I think the relatively low value for the haircut rule pretty much negates the opportunity for a systemic risk at this time.

As to interest rates, they are set by votes of the witnesses, so if there was some systemic risk concern, they could always lower the interest rate.

sounds like the pros outweigh the cons, I'm for it

I understand it is a low cost procedure and something that can be done pretty easy from your post. The issue I have with doing it now is the perception is that it is a last minute item added that has the potential to adversely effect the way things have been done. HF 25 is and should still be about stabilizing and solidifying the foundational layer, not about trying to do something last minute that seem to be an attempt to appease someone.

If something, anything goes wrong it will not matter how small the issue is with the fork, any and all likely complaints will be focused on the last minute agenda type items added.

I would urge staying with foundational repair and solidification. HF 26 can be the fork that alters and makes changes to the reward, distribution and financial system. Right now for me this proposed change is no different than an American Politician adding pork to a bill that it has no reason to be in.

Tuesday when I listened to the posted dev show from @howo, it was mentioned that Friday the code freeze may be implemented and testing to begin next week. Even though the Idea has been bandied about over the past few months or years, it has not really been presented as a possible change to the financial side of Hive until two days before a code feed.

How does will this look to an outsider thinking of investing when for the last 5 plus months all talk of HF 25 has been about the foundation, and two days before code freeze this change is proposed?

If it was put to a vote to include I would vote no. Not because the proposed change is bad, it may be a good thing, but last minute additions to any proposal has the appearance of appeasement to an individual. This could have been implemented anytime in the past year as a soft fork of HF 24. There is already plans for a soft fork shortly after implementing HF 25 for RC changes, if needed and desired so much from people save it for that RC soft fork.

I understand your objection, and it's why I made this post.

But I should add, it's definitely not an appeasement of any one individual. There's been a number of people asking for something like this for quite a while (i.e. years). Even the actual discussion on mattermost brought in more than a dozen devs and stakeholders, all who were very much in favor of the idea.

And this change isn't possible as a soft fork, unfortunately, because it changes account balances. So if it's delayed, it will likely be delayed a minimum of 6 months.

But nonetheless, I'm glad you've added your comment to the post, as I'm really trying to measure how many people disagree with the idea. For me, this is like an "informal poll" before the true vote that would be associated with witnesses undertaking to upgrade to the HF.

And if there are a number of stakeholders expressing a similar opinion, we can always drop the idea for now. At the moment, from my readings in the comments, I think you're in the minority on this issue, but this post hasn't been around long, so we'll see how it goes.

As you say the Idea has been out there for over a year. Over on steem there has been a few hf, Hive we are only on the second hard fork. It is not that I disagree with the idea, it is just the wrong time, the wrong place. People have been discussing it for a long time, but wait until the last few days before the code freeze to bring it up as part of this hard fork which has primarily been a foundation stabilizing hard fork.

They have waited over a year, six more months is not going to make or break the bank, it will if done in this hard fork cause people to look and think twice about the motivation of why now and why was it not brought up at the early discussion of HF 25 if people feel it is so important to make a last minute change to HF 25.

I was there for the EIP hard fork and the last minute changes over on Steem and then the need to rush a fix out over the weekend with out proper thought or testing and causing lots of issues for more than four days. There is a time and a place, I just do not think HF25 last minute is the time or place.

It's a couple lines of code change and we'll have 1.5 months to check for bugs and make fixes before the hardfork hits. If we find any bugs during that time, I think the overwhelming odds are it will be in one of our other changes, not this one.

If you want to make that argument they already took out a huge chunk away from HF25 by removing RC delegations to a softfork afterwards. So testing is going to be much easier than planned.

But also they are simply removing interest from unstaked HBD with the hope that witnesses increase the interest rate on staked HBD.

I guess we could all pitch in to make the testing phase go a couple days faster than planned?

It is not so much the request, I feel it is the wrong time last minute to add it to the HF. I remember the last minute changes on one of the steem hard forks, and then the quick fix, and then the several days of in and out of service of steem.

HF25 has been being discussed for several months, for most of those several months it has been about the foundation and code fixes and witness retention/selection fix, not about any financial fixes other than the RC issues so second layer players can have an easier time of onboarding and helping those they onboard get going.

I always question the motives of "Oh we forgot this, or we just remembered this", I have been trying to follow the HF 25 issues, and I do not recall any talk during that time of interest fixes other than the minor one they did about a month ago, and I believe that was just a code change that did not require consensus.

Hello I very much agree with that I think hive should have that.

I personally think this is a great idea, As for the 'last minute change' aspect, I don't think it's a bad thing to push back a HF for a relatively small and simple feature change. This would be in my opinion a great feature to bring in along side the hive->HBD conversions.


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I don't have a problem with the proposed change. And as far as adding it late, as long as it is tested to limit problems as even small changes can potentially cause errors, I don't see any issues with it.

That sounds fine to me and I agree it should be staked only that earns. However don't make it so that HBD takes 3 freakin months to unstake as well lol 3 days is plenty long enough for HBD and is pretty much the standard for most cryptos. Making it too long would just kill it for me and I'm sure many others.

I haven't heard anyone suggest increasing the unstaking time for HBD, so don't worry about that :-)

I think it's fine. As a platform we are still very much in the experimental phase. Our advantage is being able to experiment with changes relatively quickly. Rather than debating about it a whole bunch, it's probably more efficient to just implement it if it is relatively simple to do so and the potential downsides are likely manageable.

Go for it!

...If we don't like it, we can always change it again.

maybe i am missing something, from where would that 10-20% interest come from?

also is the idea to move more hive to HBD? 20% from active voting is more or less impossible, so 10% from active voting or 20% from saving seems like an easy choice.

I could be wrong about the numbers because i never got to much into it, would be nice if someone could confirm or tell me i am wrong.

if the code is simple moving it a week would probably do nothing so i don't see a problem there.

The interest is generated from inflation.

The effect of any particular interest rate payment on total Hive virtual supply (the figure which includes both Hive and "HBD if converted to Hive) inflation rate would of course depend on amount of HBD held in savings at any given time (and whatever interest rate was currently being paid). In the immediate term, this change would reduce virtual supply inflation, since the network currently pays 3% to all HBD currently, and afterwards it would only pay to staked HBD.

The proposed change itself isn't really related to whatever interest rate gets set, that's just some numbers I think were thrown out as potential values by witnesses in the discussion. I really don't have a firm opinion on what a good interest rate would be, but in any case it can be experimented with by the witnesses.

I don't think the idea behind increasing the interest rate is to convince Hive holders to move to HBD. As I understand it, the purpose would be to create an attractive investment vehicle for new non-Hive cryptocurrency investors hopping onto the DEFI staking frenzy.

I wasn't really clear what you mean about the 20% from active voting, so I can't comment on that yet.

As to the code change, I think it will just a be few lines of code. The lines of test code will likely be longer than the code changes themselves (in part because I doubt there were sufficient tests written in the past for interest payments).

i misunderstood the what needs a HF and what does not. The change for only Savings to get interest needs a HF but the % could be changed by witnesses with no need for hf.

it would reduce the inflation until people decide to stake it to savings. then everything would depend on the interest.

on 20%... what i thought, if current APR on staked hive is 3.(something)% and from normal voting, not really caring about sniping the best time the APR is around 10% you would get 13-15% on the staked Hive. If the interest on HBD in savings is 15% for only putting it to savings and forgetting about it, some amount of people would probably take the Save it rout. I am not even sure is that a good or bad thing. and all of this would depend on the % of interest.

I can see that some holders would move the funds from exchanges because of the interest, it could also stabilize it a bit.

I am not smart enough :)

Thanks for the time.

I'd like to attempt an answer to your concern here.

Firstly, HBD will likely become less volatile than now, at least on the upside. When Hive will go up in price, HBD won't follow. So, a more attractive interest rate for HBD will be necessary to compensate for the lack of "price pumps", and to be competitive with other stable coins in this regard.

It happens with widely used stable coins, their interest rates are generally higher than for volatile coins.

Secondly, there was some talk in the comments above to offer an attractive interest rate for staking Hive in the savings account. If it will be done, it won't be for this HF, because it seems a bit more complicated.

I was looking over the code for this when HBD interest came back and it doesn't look like there would be much involved so I am all for it.

Yes, that matches what the dev I asked to estimate the task said.

My small feedback is in relation to the interest rate of 3%. For me I think its a good rate even though it doesn't stack up to other rates in any of the other platforms it does insure HBD price does not become diluted.

I like the current structure of Hive Power staking.

Humble opinion.

The proposed change doesn't really affect the interest rate itself. I don't think there's any clear consensus yet on what the future interest rate for HBD should be, I was just noting some numbers I've heard thrown around in discussions. My best guess is that there will just be some experiments to see what (if anything) works well.

I am in favor of HF25

Seems sensible to me.

The idea of incentivizing people to move the HBD off exchanges is a good one if it proves successful.

I say add it in even if it delays the HF for a week or two.

I’ve long thought that SBD/HBD is a failed experiment. I would not mind at all if it died a horrible death accompanied by a Wilhelm scream.

I don't think of it as a failed experiment. I consider it more of an unfinished project which was simply ignored by Steemit.

There were obvious ways to improve it, but it simply got no attention in spite of the obvious flaws with the upward side of the peg and simple potential fixes that could have been tried.

I am good at implementing this proposal on the HF25

exchanges won’t be receiving interest payments just for holding their customer’s HBD in custody (unless the exchange puts it into a savings account, of course, but in that case it seems likely that they would have to offer some staking reward as part of such a change in order to avoid looking bad in the eyes of their customers).

I fully support this. I've suggested something similar and I know others have as well. Often in the past, when something like targeting this specific market of investors came up in discussion, it meant taking something away from the market I'm a part of. In other words, it sounded like I was getting screwed over. Not cool.

This approach opens the door to that market. Once they're in they're exposed to everything else, that still exists. AND I'm not getting screwed over.

So yeah. Whatever. Do it. And do it right.

On the long run I think if Alice has spent 100 USD to buy some Hive and Bob has spent 100 USD to buy some HBD, both Alice and Bob should be treated equally.
Because HBD is just 'Hive But Disguised'
On the practical experience that should make Bob be able to stake his HBD in the same manner Alice can stake her Hive.
In other words to stake it for 13 weeks allowing Bob to take part in the reward distribution process.

HBD actually means "Hive-backed dollars". It's named that because the blockchain backs the value of HBD by being willing to pay one dollar worth of Hive for one HBD (except in the stress case where the supply of HBD goes too high relative to the value of Hive's market cap). It was never intended that HBD and Hive holders should be treated "equally". In fact, it's the opposite: HBD was designed as an alternative coin to Hive for users who want a coin with a relatively stable value and predictable returrns, that was suitable for stable pricing of items and contract payments.

Yes, I understand the initial design was exactly as you are describing it.
However after all these years I think we might rethink the initial design.
We might think about our blockchain as a company offering to the public two products.
Product number one is Hive.
Product number two is HBD.

We are used to think Product number one is our stellar product, and product number two is just some byproduct.

But I believe we might be able to make this product number two to be the actual number one by redesigning it the way I'm proposing.

On the side note I fully agree with your actuall proposal, it's a step in the right direction.
I would just like a few more steps in future)

Can’t wait to have hbd. A lot of hbd... 😃😎great idea .

I support the proposal. It's positive for a number of reasons:

  • it makes the interest targeted and significant, thus interesting for a coin that will lack upside price movements
  • it will bring funds to our ecosystem (both back and fresh, I believe)
  • it could be a good option during the bear market, so less funds will leave the ecosystem (but here there is the issue with the downward price movement, which broke the peg significantly during the last bear market)

HBD Savings Interest at 10-20% is appealing as it is supposed to be a stable coin (though it is not exactly USDT stable). I do like the sound of that. Before the next winter arrives, it would be a good place to stash some tokens.

Interesting idea. I discussed this with my cousin and came to the same conclusion. Seems very odd to get the same amount of interest regardless if it's being staked or not.

We could also keep the interest at 3% or less for liquid and put the interest funds directly into savings. 1.5% liquid, 10% staked for example?

One of the things they try to avoid is to offer interest to exchanges for customers' HBD. Unless they stake it and share staking rewards, ideally.

Ahh yes, I forgot about his point on that, good call.

What happens to HBD interest if there's an HBD haircut with no more HBD being printed for rewards? Does the interest stop as well?

Interest rates are set by a process where the witness vote on the rates. So it's up to the witnesses to decide to react in such a case.

I like this idea and would prefer it over burning it, I would like to be able to accumulate HBD and hold it long term, while also earning a higher interest rate for doing so. I would move my HBD into savings to do this, understanding it takes 3 days to withdraw and then trade. If there is consensus, I support this change and will continue to accumulate HBD. Right now it seems pointless to do so because the price keeps rising from upbit trading against the south korean won and the value keeps dropping because we are trying to keep it at $1. This seems like a good strategy and I would start putting HBD in savings if this is included in the HF25.

I actually think that only adding interest on the HBD in savings is a very sensible idea. Go for it. Nothing else to add except have a great weekend :-)

Due to the nature of the change, knowing that it takes the opportunity to correct a misconception (payment of interest to exchanges) adding it to HF25 seems totally coherent 👍

I'm all for the changes to include this HBD savings APR increase in HF25

This will be a serious game-changer, staking is all the craze lately. I love this idea

This is a good idea.

I am happy to hear the flexibility and discussion as developing must be "open" i am learning, slowly! thanks all of youGlobotree was here

I would like to understand in greater depth all the topics, but one of the things that caught my attention was the interest for saving HBD, I do not know if I understood everything well, but this benefit would be for all the users? That is to say, we could generate even more if we have a sum of HBD in savings? excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject, but it made me very curious. To decrease the time of the shutdown period would possibly be a good thing. But I also had a doubt, would this not affect the hive at all? @blocktrades