If you became successful, would your friends like you?
Observation suggests....
Hell no.
What's with that? Is it jealousy? Does it force self-reflection on personal failure? Does it make them feel better about their own situation?
I know from my own experience that there are some people who far preferred me when I was working a shitty job and struggling to pay the bills. People preferred it when my wife and I lived in a small apartment. People seem to like being better than others so much, that they will distance themselves from friends who might "outperform" them. At least in their eyes. As after all...
Who defines success?
In Finland for example, people don't mind foreigners (in general) and are happy for them to do well - just not too well. As soon as a foreigner appears to be doing okay, there seems to be a pushback against it, as if they are taking the position of a local - someone who deserves it more.
For those who have moved into a significantly different culture - has it been an easy road?
Unlikely. It is generally a "start from scratch" situation and comes laden with a more difficult path to overcome, as like it or not, there are still prejudices in society that impact on opportunity. Occasionally they work in one's favor - but usually not. However, it could be because of facing these obstacles, a person becomes more resilient (if they don't go the other path and turn bitter), giving them an advantage and perhaps, a work ethic that stands out from the crowd, leading to overcoming some of the obstacles and increasing opportunity.
But, it isn't just foreigners like myself who find this, locals too. My wife has started noticing it from some of her friends I think, but she doesn't want to acknowledge that this is the reason. People have started to treat her differently in the last few years since we got the house and she has a job that many might envy in some way, as the company is well-known as a good employer. For now, she keeps finding other excuses as to why they act a certain way, but for me, I have seen it before, so recognize it for what it is.
Personally, I don't think it is jealousy directly, as I do think that most friends at least want to be happy for their friend's success. I think that our own humanness and desire to compete can override our best intentions however, making it hard to be happy when someone else is seen as "winning". It doesn't matter what the full landscape looks like in this regard, as there is a focus on the trees, not the forest and, there is often low visibility into other aspects anyway - like the effort that went into getting that single tree to grow or, all the other parts of life that are failing.
There is also the "you changed" belief system too, where people think because someone has changed, they are no longer the person they knew before, and this is often seen as a negative. However, we are all changing all of the time, and what might actually be happening in the case of "success" change, is that the person could be identical in personality, with the only thing shifting being the circumstances themselves.
Humans relationships are interesting I think, as while we are genetically programmed to need each other, we are also genetically programmed to push each other away, making the dynamic complicated and full of conflict. Even when we want to behave differently, in order to do so, we have to overcome our own humanness that is working against us. So much of religion is to deny temptation, but temptation is more than just seeking pleasure, it is the temptation to be aggressive and destructive too. As, even though we can feel bad for it, the "price to pay" might be worth it in order to see someone else suffer.
Of course, we are able to make new friends to replace the old, but there is a loss in this process too, as a new friend will never know the past of us, there will be another "starting from scratch" process beginning. Not only that, there is a loss of "growing together" experience, which could be ironically a big part of the problem in the growing apart process also. Friendships are often made and built through periods of life where each member is doing a similar thing, on a similar path, but those paths start to diverge through careers, taking people into new experiences, as well as now opportunities for success and failure. Then, after "all we've been through together" we end up in very different places physically, financially and in regard to our other relationship landscape - our partners, children, colleagues.
Suddenly, we seem so different.
Maybe this is just the way life is meant to be, that relationships have their seasons and while we grow together in some phases, in order for us to grow as individuals, we have to also grow apart to bring new people into our lives to challenge us, support us and, who are the kinds of people we are also willing to support and need what we bring to the table. Perhaps jealousy is an evolutionary process that makes us want to be better, try harder, or break away from one another so we don't hold each other back.
We are a flawed design.
Some will say we are "made in the image of perfection" but if this is perfect, that maker of ours is a broken individual. Why design such a conflicted system, one that struggles to do what is right for itself, let alone for others. Why is it that we can't stick to a diet that will improve our health, looks and the way we feel, yet we are still expected to adhere to complex set of social norms? And if we don't, we are punished.
If we expect so much from others, we should at least expect the same from ourselves. Unfortunately though, we are far too broken for that, so instead of fulfilling best intentions, we create conflicts where there needn't be any, amongst ourselves and within ourselves.
We are a weird species of animal, are we not?
No matter how successful we are - we are all losers to someone.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
When people first meet, there should be some process to decide if they'll be competing or co-operating; and it should last for life.
I know for example, my mum spent a lot of time looking after many of her friends' kids, while they focused on their careers.
Now those friends are enjoying financial success; should she look at them with envy, or pride?
There will always be someone that views others as losers. I don't think for me it mattered much if some people thought I was a loser. The important thing to me is I don't think I ever felt like a loser myself. I lost lots of games, challenges, and some other life opportunities, but none of them every made me feel like a loser.
Glad you are back - left a message for you on your last post to check in :)
I definitely don't feel like a loser because of this - it is just interesting that people seem to prefer it when things aren't going so well in my life. I guess it is the attitude of "How's your Bitcoin doing" when the price is down - but silence when it is up.
I never really understood why people almost abandon long friendships over trivial things, and how they can go out of their way to make others feel bad.
I think the "things aren't going well.." part is they feel they have one up on you, that they are taking you down a notch
I bought a Tesla and now my whole town hates me. 😂. So I totally get where you are coming from.
Well I hate you a little bit more too now...
Stop creating conflicts!
Can't help it. Genetics!
I experienced feelings similar to these when I was in my early/mid 20s and floundering after college. My dearest friend had found his calling, and it turned out to be rather lucrative to boot. Why couldn't I just be thrilled for my brother? Why couldn't I share in his joy? Why did I automatically view his success as a reflection against my own shortcomings? It made little sense then and still doesn't now, but I very much appreciate your perspective.
Today, my friend is married to one of the most wonderful women I've ever had the privilege to meet, and I'm nearly seven years divorced. Somehow I've grown to where I view their relationship and love as an inspiration. I sure as hell don't understand why. Maybe I've seen enough of the forest in this particular picture to understand each individual tree that much better. Maybe it's luck? Either way, it's a gift and I'm grateful, because boy, we are a weird species of animal.
Isn't this the kind of "reference group" you want, one that inspires you, not one that makes you feel good by being less than you? I see it as similar to a dictator who surrounds themselves with Yes Men, they hear what they want, not what they need.
Getting some more experience under the belt definitely helps - if only we could step back in time a couple decades with what we know now :)
100%. It's also such a better way to go about living life, cultivating a mindset more driven by gratitude and inspiration than one so focused on jealousy and climbing some abstract/comparative ladder that doesn't really matter in the end.
I think about this all of the time! There are so many people I wish I could go back and treat with so much more kindness. Then again, I often think that if it wasn't for my mistakes, I might not have ever learned to aim higher and to try and pass on my lessons to my kids. I'm just grateful they (mostly) stuck as early as they did.
If you gave all your money away would they treat you better, not sure that they would?
I don't think so. I don't think they even realize they are doing it much of the time - it is almost autopilot.
If I do come across life transforming wealth, I hope I'll be able to retain all my old friends. I understand how a change of circumstances in another can make us feel like we have underachieved, but not to the point of taking it personally against them
It isn't a direct attack, it is more subtle than that, takes time and then there is a drift away. The smiles lessen, the calls become less frequent, the messages shorter, the get togethers rare.
We cannot satisfy everyone and no matter how successful, kind generous and friendly we are some people will still hate for Ni reason
that is the way it goes - no one likes everyone - no one is liked by everyone.
Hmm maybe at its core, though from what I've seen, most people don't treat it as such. Seems that the number of people who say someone being better, and felt inspired to take control over their own life can be counted on one hand.
I think it's a survival, cave brain thing, jealousy. You had to keep a close eye on how much your neighbor's got, and how he's doing, because it meant better chances at survival for his genes. Those who were worse off weren't a threat. Though I think in caveman times, people would've been way more incentivized to try a little harder, since they understood what was at stake... so maybe you're right on that.
In modern times, though, it seems we're a world-full of losers, and most people don't seem all that bothered by the concept.
I think these days it is interesting to see that people have to apologise for losing weight, to those who won't lose weight themselves.
I agree with the caveman analogy, but at the same time back then, it was impossible to survive alone. This meant that there was more of a share system, each doing their task and appreciated for it - I wonder if it was once we started to settle down and compartmentalize as a society, that this started to change.
But we're already very good people, it's everyone else that's the problem XD
Damn I either haven't come across that particular friends' problem yet or I'm just too dumb to notice x_x I don't have many friends but nobody seems to mind when someone else moves "up" in the world.
I agree. I don't know why more people can't be as good as me!
I think there is a cultural element to it too - in finland, there is a very strong "better than the Joneses" mentality.
Is that an everywhere thing x_x like I'm pretty sure there's probably some of that going on around here as well, just...not with my friend groups XD
though in fairness I would probably fade out pretty quick from those types of friend groups
I'm glad that I don't have such people in my life, not anymore more at least haha. No matter the past we had, if we don't seem to gel anymore, then it probably isn't meant to be. If things start to get even a tad bit toxic from the other side, then I just head my own way, quietly creating as much distance possible.
I wonder though, if it leads to a less social future - is this why so many older people don't have a network of friends?
That's truly a great question, a question we rarely ask or talk about.
I guess that's what life becomes as we get older. A huge circle and number of friends and acquaintances, slowly coming down to a decent handful of people, if lucky.
We are indeed weird animals! Like schadenfreude, no?
Annabelle
yeah, it is similar to schadenfreude, but not the same. I don't think they enjoy the watching the bad times, but they don't like watching the good times. Is there an opposite of schadenfreude? :D
Excellent question, @tarazkp - it got me thinking, so I totally had to go look it up, but apparently, there is! The opposite of schadenfreude is called fremdscham, where people are uncomfortable and even get embarrassed by other people's misfortunes...I think they have a word for everything now, lol!
Annabelle 😊
True and well said. But not everyone looks at us as losers. If we see this as a concern enough to write about it, perhaps it is up to us to take the initial step to make sure we individually do not embrace that view. We cannot control the mindsets of others but we can our own.
For me, I don't think I enjoy seeing people suffer, but I do enjoy seeing them get good results. I want my friends to do well - I don't get why anyone would want different for friends. However, I can admit that at times, I also feel that ping of "why not me" - though that was more when I was younger.
I don't know for friends, but I am sure for relatives. There are challenge and comparison between children of any relatives here in my country. This could be due to the sedition of either children or their parents, but mostly parents. A kind of ignorance. I experienced it, too.
"sibling rivalry" is a thing for sure. I think this is an extension of that due to us being socially inclined.
Such a good read. It made me realize something.
I once pushed a good friend because I was not happy with how she was thriving in life. I know it sounds awful and mean. I also don't want to defend my actions as human nature. But maybe it was. I was so insecure that I always compared myself to her and I felt inferior. No matter how hard I try to be happy for her, I just cannot find myself to be one. She was a good friend, but I let my insecurities bring our relationship to a downfall.
Did you ever make up with her?
We kind of parted ways, and I felt so guilty about what I did. Until now, she had no idea what was running through my mind when I distanced myself from her.
Sometimes, distance is for the best - if only for the learning experience for next time.
That failed friendship was my learning experience indeed. I still pray that we can reconnect when the time is right.
Happiness is completed when we see it in others faces. It is like a mirror. When a normal person looks at it, he sees a smile, he feels joy. it's the smile of your friend 😊
When that smile fades?
From what I have seen, I am yet to meet someone who has outgrown it completely.
As said, I am yet to meet one :)