My Most Successful Post in Years (Promoting Hive) Was Just Downvoted by Curangel for Over $200 Right Before Payout

in LeoFinancelast year (edited)

I've updated the post with this top image, to demonstrate the hilarity of this "totally OK and not malicious" downvoting that's happening. And I figure it will make the front of the post look pretty entertaining on peakd. Oh, and I also promoted the post to the top of trending.



Let's have a little chat about downvotes shall we?

No, I'm not here to whine and complain about someone "stealing" my rewards, I've been here for five and a half years, and I know how all this works. I've written multiple big explanation posts about how rewards are only "potential" until payout happens.

I get huge 100% down-votes every so often from the big 4 anti-truth whales, and I just roll with it... Usually.

This time around, it's pretty annoying, so I figured I would at least let people know what's happening (since these folks usually wait until the last minute before payout do DV, so it can't be countered and people don't notice.)

So... let's take a look at my most successful post in a long time (by # of votes or $ payout - before that got deleted), and what happened.

This post was at around $300, with 3x the number of upvotes that I ever get on content.

Tons of comments & engagement.

Nothing controversial (they love to down-vote anything that doesn't match the technocrat narrative)

Hell, it was a post PROMOTING HIVE

Over 50 views on peakd, another 50+ on Odysee, and 40 on 3speak.



The strangest thing about this is that usually they only come and down-vote my content if I'm calling out organized crime, genocide, human trafficking, etc...

Or, of course, if you are having any sort of conversation about their malicious downvoting

Is Hive Censorship-Free? Well... Yes and No.

^^^ This is a post that I made, explaining some of the finer details of down-voting on hive, the 7 day rewards consensus, and so on...

So, of course, they removed 75% of the post's rewards.

Because how dare I question them...

I assume.

Because there's no way to know.

Because they never leave a comment, reach out to people, or give any justification for their theft of funds.



Because it really is - a downvote steals funds from the curators and author of a post, and redistributes it all to the top of the Trending page - which is mostly shitpost photography, upvoted for hundreds of dollars, by these same pro-state anti-truthers.

Since rational people like "conspiracy theorists" and "truthers" don't believe in censorship, and prefer to actually have debates, this [email protected] of downvote abuse is all one-directional.

The people who want Hive to be more and more like Facebook or Twitter are actively trying to push anyone who disagrees with them off the platform, and continually centralizing the stake of Hive, through their scheme.

Here are some examples of other, extremely high quality, posts that they attack - usually targeted at specific creators, in an attempt to force them off Hive.



First up, here are some screenshots of the most recent posts by ura-soul, who has been creating high quality content, running a witness (Hive Block Producer) and promoting the blockchain since the early days of Steem. He is now being systematically attacked by the anti-truthers, to the tune of $1000s per week.


Next up, here is the same activity over on JasonLiberty's profile as well...



There's lots more, but I need to get off the computer for the day



Finally, here are some of the recent conversation posts about these bad actors, attempts to communicate with them, potential ways to deal with them, and the mass exodus from Hive.





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I've never felt the need to downvote someone because I disagree with what they posted. I find it very strange that there are people around here that do that. I certainly don't want to end up in an echo-chamber of the same content regurgitated over and over again just to appease the whales that control things.

That's where I'm at too... some of my most enjoyable and most engaged-with posts have been when I found some post I disagreed with so heartily that I went and wrote an entire 2000 word response post (literally promoting the person through doing so, as well as commenting on their post and upvoting it for visibility)

But hey, that's just me.

Exactly! If someone has an opposing viewpoint, duke it out in the comments or with another post. That would be the mature, adult thing to do.

Well that’s just called being a genuine, decent human being. I’ve seen a couple of people that support this by saying oh well they still make more than some people on hive, meanwhile I know these people have incredibly well-paid jobs. They have no idea what some people go through or how much time and effort some people put into posts and communities and how devastating it is for those people to get their genuine support ripped away from them. People up though and use their up votes to support content they like, it’s essentially robbery.

It's actually people who are millionaires who are doing the downvoting against people who are poor(politicians do the same thing irl!)

Feels good that a millionaire would take time out of their day to censor someone because they can. They could be retired or live their lives doing something productive instead.

It’s also the ones to make remarkably average post them selves and don’t seem to mind those posts getting overvalued.

Noticed this for sure. Every argument I've ever read about post quality is dashed by this fact, which is plain to see for anyone.

really, the people that have done it to me have literally said they will punish me then write 'over rewarded' one hour later, whilst getting a lot for a very average post. The more you look the more you see it happening to others. I have had it just for defending someone else or commenting on a post or resharing a post they don't like etc. The timing is everything sometimes, but the comments like 'over rewarded' lets it go unnoticed to those not paying attention. It's a real shame a small handful of people ruin what would otherwise be a really amazing and nice community. If you don't like something or someone fair enough, down voting them to oblivion is another. It just shouldn't be allowed IMO.

Couldn’t agree more downvoting is just childish unless someone’s actually spamming, plagiarising or sharing the same post or comment over and over. It makes me laugh because these people claim to hate Facebook and the government yet given a tiny bit of power just become those very people they hate. The joys of projection. I can honestly say I probably down voted about two people in my life and that was only someone that just continually put the same comment over and over again on every post and then I think right at the beginning I flagged someone who flagged me, before growing up and realising that that made me just as pathetic.I truly feel for people that rely on these platforms for income, it’s actually psychological abuse to dangle money in front of their face and then take it away at the last minute. It’s one thing never getting money on a post but to show the money that could be paying for urgent medical bills and lots of things we don’t know about and take it away just at the last minute is one of the cruellest thing someone could do to someone. If I see anyone down voting I make sure to mute them immediately now so that I will never have anything to do with them accidentally.

I supported the proposal, for the ~200k I have proxied to me.

Hey thanks man. If I went through what you just did on two posts in a row I would had flipped out or got all depressed especially with ALL the energy and support you put towards Hive and the community for what 5+ years not too mention onboarding. I do hope you are reconsidering staying with us man! Let's do this! We are a young chain and community and we need you bro!

Ok neoxian does not need my account for collateral.

Perhaps, I can delegate my SPL cards to you for 30 days as the cards unlock. I feel comfortable giving my owner key to @steembasicincome for the 30 days, after the 30 days I transfer the cards to you. 5000 shares of HSBI currently is around 7,500 usd. I am ok with 1,666 liquid Hive at the end of 30 days too that Joe would hold. If both you and Joe is ok with this then lets do this!

I give my owner key to Joe and delegate my cards to you for 30 days in return I receive the 5000 HSBI shares immediately and remaining 1,666 Hive in hsbi shares too or Joe holds remaining 1,666 liquid hive until cards are transferred. At end of 30 days I transfer cards to you and receive the remainder of 2,500 worth of Hive at today's price of $1.50 usd which is 1,666 liquid Hive if the option for remaining 2,500 usd in HSBI is not executed.

I must say I do feel weird about this deal and not in a real hurry to do it as my gut is saying to wait. But I do want to facilitate this with you @kennysgaminglife as I recognize your over efforts on Hive and want to help you. I just think perhaps you need some time to think about your future on Hive. Look at your engagement on your post. The community loves you. I do not think you should leave yet. Things are just starting to get interesting. looking at the charts, there is typically a burning event between the 4th and 6th of each month. Today's Hive price around 5pm pst might be noice. Unless that happened on thanksgiving as a early gift.

I've been on the wait out for years, only dealing with the BS and the time it eats because of the delegation I have and the responsibility & opportunity to serve that goes along with it.

Obviously, I could have handed that off to other able community members at any time, so I'll just figure out a smooth way to do that.


I only have a total of 4809 HSBI shares between my two accounts if you want to tweak your math with that number. Also not in a hurry or anything, obviously it takes time to shift in this system anyway.

I like riverflows a lot. She has a good heart and honestly looks out for people.

My vision quest curating all over hive is about done now. I am ready to curate in a more focused manner especially if it means further supporting @ura-soul and your buddy @truthforce and @informationwar while keeping mind to support artist too, art is healing. Lets execute the deal if @josephsavage is ok with it.

FYI, I was on the recent 3speak community talk and covered downvoting to some extent, from my POV. The original audio has some audio volume issues, but I uploaded an improved version here:
https://peakd.com/hive-181335/@ura-soul/jgwxmjtg

Downvoting Kenny's posts to zero will not disempower him or his projects.
Kenny, reach inside and recognize that there is a time to back away, and there is a time to rise - this is not the time to be forced out of your own space. There is a solution here we have yet to find.

Start doing Odysee exclusive videos and charge for the super valuable info-posts, which is a lot of what you publish brother... or don't do that if you don't want, I'm just saying... I think it's experiment time. There are way too many facets of this space now. Downvoting a blog post is only a small power compared to what can be accomplished with other projects outside of blogging where no votes are involved. But this inherent flaw in the chain does need to be addressed, and I think folks doing the DV'ing should comment on their displeasures so we can actually start working towards a resolution... If this flaw can be fixed we will have indestructible tech, we MUST talk about a solution to unwarranted attacks. They have literally started an uprising, we just need a new strategy.

I like this a lot @elamental . I'm focused on hive because I feel the greatest connection to the community here.
I can understand the logical arguments for this kind of downvoting but I think it's something that should be done much more sparingly because it emphasizes just how hard it is to stand up to those with more stake or power.

If they disagree with rewards 20-30% is enough.

There is also a decent possibility that a group of whales on Hive have been offered a development protocol by even larger potential investors and have been promised certain returns and a higher Hive value (including a global marketing package) in return for 'cleaning up' Hive and systematically removing key users and community leaders in Hive that they deem 'unsanitary' - who taint their 'perfect Hive users vision' for future plans of the platform.

The potential for Hive is still massive and it is starting to be noticed. In their minds, they are simply doing what is necessary to make Hive grow.

The use of Hive as a platform for free speech will simply become a novelty if this bullying is allowed to get to these key users.

I say only certain users that have been deemed community leaders have been targeted because I personally have NOT been targeted and yet I have offered non-mainstream perspectives in many posts.

It is the influencers who have a dangerous amount of stake that can make it a threat for this 'Hive cartel's' attempt to control and direct Hive that they are specifically targeting. They seek to take the blood out of the freedom beast that lives here on Hive.

Of course, this is all a theory... but it's not completely out there. Keep up your spirit man in whatever you do. We need to work together now more than ever - and stand as a united force on all fronts if we have any hope in hell of making it through this veil of deception shrouded over the world.

It's temporary - the veil is temporary - the walls of deception are coming down.

Hive still has purpose and has potential to support this mission.

Can you imagine how many community organizers like Kenny has come and gone that has experienced what Kenny is pointing out here. If we are going push away legitimate content creators with decentralized pro crypto viewpoints with large audiences and extremely well connected to other very successful content creators with large audiences as well then what are we doing utilizing Hive as a social media if it will discourage people from using or investing in Hive?

We need content creators with decentralized views points and content on a decentralized chain right? Is this centralized like Steem or what?

I'm definitely over on-boarding people to this place; and I'm looking to make a strategic exit now, like so many other truthers who had a lot of stake in steem/hive, before it became obvious that we lost this battle.

My content is Hive-exclusive, has been since I joined Steem in 2016.

I have onboarded hundreds of users, including giving dozens of hours-long classes to groups, giving years-long 1-on-1 guidance to all the friends who have stuck with it, promoting on all the other platforms and at events all year every year.

Just to have this place descend further and further, to where I'm rooting for the idea of just deleting the social media aspect at this point - if they're going to rape the rewards pool and downvote most of the good content anyway, let's just go 100% defi and give up the experiment.

This antagonistic psycho-manipulative behaviour is kind of what is intended in my view and the result that they want is exactly what you mention you might do here.

The very fabric of the free internet is being threatened at the moment. A popular video has been thrown around regarding the EU censoring entire non mainstream domains at a domain level. Source

Hive - for better or worse, may actually survive this censorship due to its versatility and the nature of the blockchain.

Hive, in the state of decreptitude that it is may yet be a single last bastion of truth - as patriotic and corny as that sounds.

Keep fighting I say. Keep posting and take it in your stride. If we can't take a little fight on the way - we were dead in the water when we began.

There is a new important user recently introduced by @brianoflondon - @normanfenton - in his own words - "I am a Professor of Risk Information Management at Queen Mary University of London and a Director of Agena, a company that specialises in risk management for critical systems. I’m a mathematician by training with current focus on critical decision-making and, in particular, on quantifying uncertainty using causal, probabilistic models that combine data and knowledge (Bayesian networks). The approach can be summarized as 'smart data rather than big data'. Applications include law and forensics (I've been an expert witness in major criminal and civil cases), health, security, software reliability, transport safety and reliability, finance, and football prediction." Source

Find his latest post illuminating the disinformation and ignorance surrounding Ivermectin in the mainstream here - https://peakd.com/hive-163521/@normanfenton/another-story-of-academic-corruption-relating-to-covid-data

If people like @normanfenton can find a place here and still make it through the network of bullying and coercion on this platform - there is still hope!

What if your decision to stay on here and continue regardless of these setbacks actually sets a precedent for others to do the same to create and bolster a strong community that flourishes and survives through any hardship?

Excellent comment. I intend to explore avenues to counter a centralisation of wealth and stake by malicious downvoting whales but am so time poor.

Absolutely stunned to see Norman Fenton on here. I stumbled upon his latest videos and podcast uploaded on anchor.fm yesterday. He speaks my language and reminded me of all the questions i posited when this all started but neglected to answer due to the traumas and pressures of daily existence piling up.

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Freedom of speech and censorship has never been at risk on Hive, these nutjobs are just annoyed they can't use stake that has been trusted upon them to constantly use it in their favor and keep referring to censorship when other stakeholders feel they don't deserve as much rewards from the daily rewardpool. It's all about the rewards, always has been. They'll cry about how badly stake is distributed even though there's valid proof it's one of the best distributed currencies on the internet and then they'll cry how other whales have managed to buy up a lot of coins while they have sold most even though they've been milking it for years. Not that I'm someone who hasn't been selling but at least I don't cry when someone takes some of my candy away.

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I've been fighting on this blockchain since 2016, full time on-boarding, promoting, teaching, curating, organizing, commenting, posting.

I've been through various waves of whale wars and flag wars, I had to explain what happened to Berwick when ol' BS downvoted him for a few hundred bucks (while he was making thousands per post)

I've watched most of the freedom movement either ignore Hive, call it a CIA operation (thanks Whitney!), just copy-paste here and withdraw their earnings, or give up on it already.

When this place launched (as steem) it was already a bit of a shit-show, but most of the whales were anarchists, and if people had come here instead of sticking with FB & Twitter (and more of the big names here had interacted & re-invested instead of draining the economy) - we'd have control of this chain now, and the statist folks doing all the downvoting would not have been able to stack so much cheap coin.

At this point, it would take something like $20 million or more to get the freedom movement back on par with those whales down-voting it.

What if your decision to stay on here and continue regardless of these setbacks actually sets a precedent for others to do the same to create and bolster a strong community that flourishes and survives through any hardship?

It's a nice idea, but like I said...

We've already gone through this rodeo multiple times. Some of the actors change, but the game stays the same - only with a wider and wider gap in the stake on the opposing sides (and not tilting in the favor of free speech and liberty.)

I empathize with your experience on these platforms and I say there is definitely a time to walk away and have a break.

Maybe this is not the end - it's just a time you need to recharge.

I am grateful for your work and your strength!

If you and others like your weren't fighting to make Hive into what it is now, there would be no deep community on here that has developed a fuck tonne of resilience!

And by fuck, resilience is what we need at the moment.

Please have a break and reconsider at a later date!

I don’t think thars the answer anyway maybe David icke joins and powers up 20 million then an even richer guy like kim jong Un joins and flags all his posts etc. At the end of the day no amount of money will change a system. Something has to be done to the platform itself or people themselves have to change.

Fighting?

Fighting what? Your shadow? :)

Fighting in the general sense of struggle, putting in energy and time... putting in untold hours learning about it, teaching about it, promoting it to thousands (actual in person hands-on promotion), researching, creating, and...

Fighting against folks with too big an ego, some stake to throw around, and no sense of common decency, fair play, or honest discourse - in this case usually through helping bring to light their activities and intentions, through posts like this, and through reaching out to individuals to ask them to remove their support from projects like curangel, behind these attempts at censorship & fiscal warfare.

Anytime tribe touched a post it either feed someone in another country or it inspired others to continue creating good content. When it felt like my efforts to engage with with the community of Hive was all for not after writing a post that took me days to write and study info on just to be slandered and verbally attacked by someone who, yes this will trigger him but, I still see as a brother hurt.

But then to see a community approved account that is supposed to protect the chain like a @hivewatchers moderator decides instead to jump in on the action by DMing me and telling me that Threats of violence and overall hostile attacks on your character and physical person is 100% ok and stop upvoting comments was so confusing and isolating. Mind you it wasn't even me that was calling them. I was telling people to stand down.

But then here comes Kenny with delegated Hive power that I had I never thought I would had ever received and on two accounts. I did not even know him. Just dude came in made feel like I was apart of the team and more important a valuable member of the Hive community.

Kenny has helped me keep a really strong positive perspective on Hive even when my outlook is as bearish. Kenny has been fighting the good fight. He is onboarding a lot of people and has really really cared for our community.

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@kennyskitchen since I've only started really becoming involved in Hive very recently, I'm very unfamiliar with the politics and the general experience. I'm sure you have very valid reasons for wanting to leave, but I would also encourage you to think about sticking around to help come up with solutions. These are such early days of blockchain still, and we're still all very much involved in an experiment and working out all the bugs. As an Abraham-Hicks student, I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of contrast. 🙂 You're an integral part of this system. You have a ton of influence. Your experience will be very beneficial to the future, and I think your experiences and knowledge of this space and blockchain will prove extremely beneficial for all. There are always solutions. And I know you're a cooperative component for the many who are counting on the future of blockchain. What you've experienced is only giving us an example of how control can be taken over blockchains which gives us an opportunity to come up with solutions. The more this happens, the more we can work the bugs out to stop this from happening for mass adoption. The way this is working is probably the same way it happens in all arms of society. And when we figure it out here we create a model.

I do not want to speak for Kenny but I have a feeling he will change his mind after a night of sleep... maybe two. Such large downvotes can be like stepping on a nail, which will lead to some discomfort. I say this because he loves Hive too much. The community is showing support with engagement here and surly this will help him readjust to a more positive mindset like he usually has towards Hive.

I'm good on Hive, I've started all delegation removals & power-downs, to liquidate as much as possible during this next bull run.

I'll stick to Odysee-only videos now, and will probably just stay away from more time-intensive research papers and such... If I make any more content at all.

Really, I've been done with social media, and especially Hive, for a LONG time, I just stuck around because I've had this opportunity/responsibility to distribute thousands of dollars a week in rewards.

I'm over that. They're canceling out most of the content I've been here to support, most of the movement has already left (or never came here) and it's quite obvious that they (the pro-state anti-truthers) have long since won the war for steem/hive.

I am trying to prevent someone like from leaving Hive with this proposal. Please reconsider until we see what kind of momentum we get from this proposal. Otherwise if you want I can sell ya my cards for 10k worth of hive. Was trying to get rid of them for 12k in order to get more delegated hive power and a parcel in the metaverse. You sold me on Hive when I was not stoked on it due to these issues I saw happening to people like you. https://peakmonsters.com/@dynamicgreentk/cards

pro-state anti-truthers

What a delusional world you must be living in.

The solution would be to fork away and having a platform where voting stake is totally separate from $$, and where the members actually have some level of shared values - I've tried pushing for that for years; no sign of it anywhere down the road.

I'm done wasting time on a cess-pool of the old system with a slightly newer paint job.

Hive is the best social media platform out there... and social media is the scourge of humanity. I can't justify supporting or feeding into this place any more.

This is the sole reason I have never invested personal money into hive. If there was no down voting it would be a no-brainer to move almost all my Crypto here.

Can you not see the wood for the trees? People see you as posting 5 times a day, and immediately taking the rewards out to Bittrex (because HIVE is above $1.50 per). If you had some stake here instead of this 'take-take' mentality, then you would get accepted more.

There is nothing wrong with your content, it's the behaviour you exhibit and then all the moaning after some DV's have hit you. If it's so bad here, you have the option to use STEEM and/or BLURT and get out.

I use my hive to trade and live off and keep the 50 percent as stake. The guy down voting me is on a constant power down. I only powered down to be able to try and trade with some whilst hive is high so I can put more back in.

Not everyone can afford to keep their full stake in a platform. Having said that I have always kept 50 in and cashed out the 50 percent unless I really needed access to it, covid was not kind to freelancers. The platform was even designed in that way to be an income stream and a holding stake in a Platform simultaneously else it wouldn’t be split like that. Those who can power up 100 percent and don’t need to access any money good for them! But everyone is going to power down at some point. Some p just think everyone should do the same as they do. I acknowledge everyone has different periods in their life, different set ups, different ideas.

I also care about other people and see people trashed down to zero for an opinion people don’t like. For them that big payout that then gets taken away could push them over the edge if that’s what was going to save them that month from homelessness. I curate a hell of a lot of artists and spend hours and hours doing it. You make tons on here and if you can afford to power up all the time and don’t need to access any of it then good for you! That’s awesome. But one day you will take yours out. It’s better leaving it in who doesn’t want to make more money. But one day you too will decide to take some money out and do something with it. Or you will need it for an unexpected bill, or a period of redundancy who knows.

You make tons on here

Yes I do well here. Do you think I did so well when we met in March 2018 at Birmingham (SteemCamp 1). At that time, I was the noddy getting 3c per post then. It seems one of us did the right thing, and the other did not. I don't ask or beg for these votes.. they just appear. I'm not going to continue this as we are never going to agree.

I do not believe one did the wrong thing and one did the right thing. I don't believe investing money in materials and using it to live off makes you a worse person than someone who powers up for a few years then takes the money out later. If people see that as unworthy of reward I guess thats up to them. This place is full of unique people full of differing life circumstances that change all the time. As long as you do what you feel is right that should be all that matters.

I have no problem with you making money from posts, good for you I say, I am not the one judging them or down voting them or analysing how much of them you invest or use for your day to day life. Good for you I say for putting in the time and effort to build connections. I am happy for you.

I'm definitely over on-boarding people to this place;

That is so funny because my buddy just came in my room and said he was watching some random bitchute video and the guy he was watching was praising your name for onboarding him to hive and blockchain tech. I didn't see the video but was like man if only people like @theycallmedan or any other people looking to onboard notable people to their projects like @threespeak or @peerplays that you may have connections to key influencers Luke or Dbroze etc that you are the most valuable on boarder in that regards. I do hope you start to change your mind a bit and maybe reblog my proposal at least in the off chance the community furthers supports in in order to keep you and others around while improving our relationship with large stake holders.

https://wallet.hive.blog/proposals

Hey Bruv! I'm forced to agree with most of this comment from my own perspective.
I'd like to go a little further with HIVE than you so I cannot abandon My cause... YET...

I'd love to bring you up to speed on opportunities in my land IF you're up for it.
Lots has happened since meeting You and your tribe in 2015 in Denver...
I'd HOPE you would see this as opportunity.

I'm camping around but would like to meet up and see if you're interested in Signing some Documents I've been working on... it's exciting stuff. If you're just down for a talk to get some perspective then you and I should have a conversation. I use Matrix:Element

Otherwise, BLURT is everything you need, MINUS Nerds who just NinjaMined their Stake and ACT like THAT matters more.

Thank you for everything you do for the community of Hive. I really don't know why we can not hardfork the DVs out of the posts and keep it strictly for witness voting. As it is there is no downvote function for proposals so why have that function on posts?

The witnesses silence on this is beyond alarming. It points to them either approving 100% or there is only really 10-15 witness and they have to obey the guy with the biggest stake. Anymore it feels we have been hijacked as a chain.

The witness silence on this is beyond alarming.

That's like saying Bob from accountings silence is alarming. Witnesses have nothing to do with post rewards and are not police officers. They produce blocks and maintain the security of the chain, not judge every squabble or moderate rewards.

They produce blocks and maintain the security of the chain, not judge every squabble or moderate rewards.

You rock man! Thanks for your input!

Also thanks for the support you give the the team at PAL and investing in a big way that gives confidence to Hive! Sorry for edits literally just woke up and saw I had a response from you. was super stoked....

This is all important stuff that we're working out here though. It's experiences like this that help all of us brainstorm and come up with solutions which will improve social media for the future. We keep learning more and more how people can take control. That also has applies beyond blockchain. It sucks for people to lose money, but the implications of going through this stuff and learning and evolving is great for humanity's future ultimately.

Very true! There are healthy solutions to problems. Once the f you game is started there is no winners if we can not find healthy and fair solutions. The way the whitepaper was written opened the door for unfair scenarios where only one out of the three DPoS protocols calls for downvotes on community posts but not for witnesses or proposals where DPoS is supposed to really be applied. We either need to apply downvotes to Witness voting and proposals or eliminate them all together. We need Whales, we need to support them and we need a fairly written whitepaper.

Ah man... my sincere apologies!

I just found this post in the "muted" category while scrolling Hive content to read / curate during spare time, to find my account had automatically disliked many of them (and, unfortunately your post that Curangel also downvoted) due to participating in a curation trail with downvotes enabled. Heck, I'm even in your screenshots above haha.

I realize that I'm at fault by following that trail, but damn. I've had my account on this status for a while, I wonder how many people / posts this has happened to, I'm going to revoke my posting authority from the trail(s) and do more manual curation, you didn't deserve that AT ALL, unacceptable for such powers to be used against genuine people like this.

I personally will not downvote something unless it's outright foul, obvious disinformation, or harming/targetting someone, truly apologise mate, have some !LUV tokens, apologies once again, friend! ❤️

Hey, I appreciate that; both noticing the issue, and the comment!

It seems to be a somewhat common theme, you're the second person who down-voted my work unknowingly because of the curangel trail (the other being someone who actively supports my work)

I really wanted to avoid this debate because I think we need more time to find a wide variety of investors to distribute rewards to content creators who will stack rather than sell, that is how we will see more decentralization of power. So in some ways I think it's just a patience game, but someone has to mention the elephant in the room, which is that technology and ideology isn't enough to decentralize power. As long as people aren't willing to respect opposing viewpoints and be a little kinder in their disagreements, we are always going to have some people dominating other people and doing everything in their power to control them.

If this is just a disagreement about rewards, there is no reason to downvote you to 0, that will inevitably be treated as antagonization and a display of power, regardless of what it's intended as. We need more compassionate "policing" at Hive. We survived the bidbots and come back stronger so I think we can survive this too.

I would not give up on Hive. This place will get better if people like us stick around and have these hard conversations with as much patience and compassion as we can muster.

I will try to add something more to the conversation soon but I want to approach it with some tact. Please don't give up @kennyskitchen @ura-soul.

From my perspective, this downvote you received on this post is more an antagonization than a complete censorship.

I mean, if your intention is to censor a user and you had the stake and the accounts, wouldn't you downvote them until their reputation is in the minus and their posts are muted for the average person to see?

The fact that this hasn't happened means the power is still somewhat balanced on both sides.

Keep posting - keep going, there is no need to submit to a tyrant or an anti-truther cartel on Hive (who knows really) - engage in dialogue where possible and remember the key intention - to make great quality content that assists in the awakening of humanity.

As long as your content is still getting air time - there is still hope.

For now Hive (although having schizophrenic episodes) is still a haven for truthers and is still largely resistant to censorship.

Reputation is only lowered from downvotes if the downvoter has a higher reputation than the recipient. Thankfully, the community has chosen to hold many of those being downvoted in a position of higher respect than the downvoters currently, so accounts cannot so easily be trashed.

Thanks for the explanation. Excuse my ignorance on the issue.

If they are going to downvote people then they should at least be transparent.
Honestly, if they continue, then I wish Justin Sun comes and buys out Hive and kicks them all off the Blockchain like he did on Steemit. These people are malicious and they aren't doing this for the betterment of the community.

I totally understand why Sun blocked some of their accounts on Steemit.

Hive is getting worse than Facebook censorship, we have millionaires who are downvoting and censoring content now.

Why even do that, they are millionaires, like find something better to do with your life.

I guess that’s what being a millionaire must do to these people. They no longer have to work so they spend their time being the bully on the playground just like in grade school.

I feel this is an element of personal psychology that exists whether a person has money or not - the money just gives them a sense of not being touchable, but they are wrong.

What if the genuine truthers on here decided to stop using their posts as some kind of scoreboard effecting their self-esteem and instead drew their energy from the fact that they can still post and focused on genuine user engagement.

I understand that this is an income for some, and it may yet be that in the future (if we get over this bumpy ride) - but I still see so many pluses in the use of Hive in regards to dissemination of truth.

The problem is also that the impact of zeroing a post removes that post from trending lists (as Kenny explains in his post) and is essentially giving the power of editorializing content to those with the largest stake.

Like it or not, these posts are a scoreboard and the upvote reward total is how the system decides which posts are worthy of more eyeballs. Allowing several accounts to choose who is on the trending lists is the furthest thing from decentralization.

I suppose I stopped looking at the score board when I stopped using facefuck.

So I seem to be a bit more immune to the illusion of the numbers game.

Them wanting to protect their stake and inflation means they care about it which is a good thing.

If you're protecting your stake I anxiously await your group and others downvoting all of the content on trending page that is hilariously over rewarded.

Just last month posts were being downvoted that had 50 to 80 usd for "being over rewarded" and now trending has hundreds of posts 200 usd+ plus with no downvotes.

I hope you can understand where we are coming from.

I don't judge posts as overrewarded only based on usd, I do however keep an eye on certain authors who more often keep getting rancho votes that take them over the top on top of some other leeches I've had my eyes on for a longer while. Quite frankly it takes a lot of time to look for overrewarded posts, when I have free time I do it, but quite busy these days and curation of underrewarded authors and newcomers from our onboarding have a higher priority to me and my project. Aside from everything else I got going right now it's not like I'm going to spend extra time I don't have looking for overrewarded posts just cause you feel I should do it to make up for the few times I have downvoted authors on your curation list.

The Rancho votes are a problem,
that I agree with you on.

Does your group DV food recipe posts for example that are 200 usd? If you do then I take what you say more seriously on protecting the reward pool. Maybe you do and I didnt know about it.

Right now we are just being slammed and it's one sided as we dont downvote. We could. We have just as much power as a few whales combined.

I've told others not to do that, I cant stop people forever though I'm just one person. Believe me there are some I've talked to amd convinced not to start dving back and their gaining a lot of support privately. I dont want to see another dv war, but it's looking like that's what it's coming to in these private convos. Ugh

Them wanting to protect their stake

By stealing the stake of others?

Or by driving all the users away from Hive?

Or by making "Hive" synonymous with censorship and authoritarian trolls to the small handful of people who have heard of it?

This is a systematic attack, targeting individuals and taking the rewards from them and their curators, back to these couple of people - all clearly based on the defense of the pedophile agenda (hence completely leaving alone shitpost photography & recipes - but zeroing out research, journalism, and high quality content.)

It's not stealing, how do you still see it as that so many years here?

Censorship again? Come on, feels like you guys are literally losing your minds over rewards even after having made so much which the rest of the internet wouldn't give you a dime for.

I doubt smooth downvotes for anything else than disagreement of rewards and maybe the complaints of how things work here, he's one of the most respected stakeholders around but obviously you guys are just going to turn against anyone when all you care about is money.

I'm genuinely curious about this. When so much voting power is concentrated in so few accounts, their own self-interest would seem to potentially conflict with the interests of the less wealthy bloggers.

While I agree that the whales want to prevent the whole system from coming crashing down (to preserve their own wealth), the fact they are so self-interested in their own stake versus the community as a whole is an issue that a lot of users are trying to find a solution to. There has to be a balance that would appeal to both the Hive oligarchy and the rest in order to improve the appearance of decentralization - while still allowing a mechanism for dealing with plagiarism and fraud-like over-rewarding. Or am I just being too naïve?

There's not that much stake concentrated into a few accounts, smaller bloggers could easily band together and counter it. I know that if a bad whale would start downvoting something that's not controversial/borderline dangerous content I and many others would step in to counter it - so maybe there just isn't that much interest to help these people getting downvoted. Similarly how there isn't much interest to engage with most of these content creators looking at dbroze, highimpactflix, and some others who are apparently big "influencers". It's all just autovotes for the most part and now some are saying it needs to stop, they need to get a smaller pie from the rewardpool because such content while it's possible to exist here isn't bringing hive any value. Most of people crying about it are the ones cashing in on being left alone.

Thanks for responding, I'm really trying to better understand the mechanics of the downvoting and how much HP it takes to effectively zero a post. Looking at Effective HP on HiveBuzz, there's 36 accounts with >500k HP, which is probably enough for each of them to zero several popular posts a day. I'll have to search around some more to find a breakout of the HP distribution curve across all accounts as that might help inform me a bit more on the concentration, or lack thereof, of HP.

You're right, there apparently isn't enough interest for the "masses" to band together to counteract the big downvotes even though they may have enough HP to do it.

With regards to engagement, I remember a post of yours a while back that asked us to look at our comment to posting ratio and that certainly changed my perspective and I shifted a lot more of my time to commenting and engagement instead of just posting Actifit updates every day.

Perhaps a new focus on rewarding comments more than a primary post would move things more in the right direction with regards to rewarding the content most beneficial to the platform? Not sure if that's even implementable, but it's an interesting thought.

If folks observed the 1000mv vote limit we could end this issue immediately, but greed won't let them.
https://peakd.com/utopian-io/@paulag/the-impact-of-unused-steempower-on-the-rewards-pool-blockchain-business-intelligence

hmmm interesting idea to cap the vote value a single account can give. It'd certainly make it more difficult for the whales to exert control if they had to spread their HP across thousands of accounts and operate them in unison to maintain the same vote power. But I'm guessing that in order for a change like that to take place in a hardfork, the whales would have to vote to make themselves less powerful... and we know they won't do that!

That's great to hear, we've shifted a lot of our focus on rewarding social content creators rather than those who just blog and dash, unless they're content is exceptional and they also link back to Hive on their other socials or have a big influence over there. If two content creators on Hive have the same quality of posts but one is not active at all or only replies "thanks" to comments on their posts while the other is going around connecting with others, leaving them comments and genuinely growing and receiving more manual votes, etc, we much rather reward that one than the other. It's one of the perks of curating manually and having many checkpoints we have nominations of posts from communities go through that we're able to place the votes where we really think authors deserve them and are bringing value to Hive in more ways than just the content.

We've recently added comment nominations as well which we give a 1-2% vote with ocdb but it's not as active, I'm going to figure out how to incentivize it to become more active down the line, though. In general I think not curating the unsocial ones as much could be incentive enough to want to become more. Only wish autovoters would check for the same things.

that is not cool... have an upvote!

the fact that there ar eso many comments on this post gives me hope that we will change things soon (e.g., Dan's idea)

@tipu curate

Why are there never comments on his actual content he votes up a lot with stake that's been trusted on him?

This particular comment, and a few other highly counter-factual comments you made, spurred me to write a whole post to, and about, you.

Since you obviously know nothing about me, but are making brash (untrue) statements about me all over the comments of my posts, I figured a brief introduction was in order.

That, and showing an example of how to challenge someone's claims, when you believe they are being dishonest, or are simply incorrect (as opposed to resorting to censoring them or name calling and ad hominems.)

Wow this is the longest thread I've ever read through on here. I'm learning so much. Thanks @kennyskitchen for sharing what is going on and to all of you commenting here. I sure hope you stay here Kenny! Please continue pumping out inspiring content. Even if we need $20 million to counter these censors, this place still seems like an amazing place to network with like minds around the globe and share content.

This post definitely comes at an interesting time. Last week I was able to regain access to my account here after several years and I was feeling super inspired to share my intro post. I've already helped onboard several and had/have plans to start onboarding a large amount of creative community members in our communities in Colorado and Mexico. Now I'm at a cross roads..

Should we stay or should we go?! Should we dive in with a bunch of energy here or not?

I don't have the answers but I will continue to research and learn more while I'm here.

Part of the standard Steem/HIVE programming is an indoctrination course about how the system "works." Unfortunately, the system does not work as designed. Yes, "consensus" sounds like a good, even reasonable word. It conveys the idea that almost everybody agrees. You see, they had planned on tapping into 'crowd wisdom' to achieve consensus. However, tapping into crowd wisdom is a sort of controlled experiment. And the same crowd will not continually give you its wisdom thousands of times a day for every post. So, even hypothetically speaking, if a new group judged a post each time, they'd all have to have an equal vote for the system to divine any wisdom.

That said, the result is a stake wisdom consensus, and clearly, that's meaningless drivel. Mostly, HIVE would do better off with only upvoting content one likes and subscribing to trails that one enjoys while reserving downvotes to specific use cases such as (spam, scam, plagiarism, and mislabeled-NSFW). Many HIVE-folk got tricked into thinking stake-based consensus is something of merit. However, negative curation carried out by a few bad actors destroys the chance of an intelligent result. The sooner we can collectively shake the idea of "how all this works" and move into why and how it's broken, the better chance we have at repairing & creating a better POB.

I never even knew that this was a thing! Thanks for pointing this out. I guess down the rabbit hole of the other side of HIVE I didn't know existed I go!

Hmmm, I was booted from the Abundance.Tribe for confronting one of the top 10 elders with the truth and it involved greed... JS

That being said, I could never support the actions of the group mass downvoting and zeroing out earnings for seemingly ideological reasons. Will I be attacked now? It is what it is and Hive isn't the only ball on the court anymore.

I've said since day one the POS system set up here creates an Oligarchy. An Oligarchy will never be decentralized... ever!

I don't recall the exact details, but it seems like that was mostly you and one other person having an issue, them removing you, me canceling/undoing that, but you not wanting to come back without an apology that they were not willing to give and I was not willing to force from them... Am I wrong?

I've said since day one the POS system set up here creates an Oligarchy. An Oligarchy will never be decentralized... ever!

So true. Create a system where whoever has the most money in the game gets to change the rules and do whatever they want... what could go wrong?

And that same fella isn't in this comment section cuz he doesn't want to lose his earnings. I saw his comment on another post of yours saying just that.

It comes down to being able to be frank without repercussions and that wasn't the case in your tribe. I'm fine with that, cuz I really don't want to be around those types... I didn't ask for an apology, I asked that he be the one to invite me back, so it would be less likely to happen again. Taking accountability shows integrity and that would show me it would be worth coming back in.

Instead I was further proven correct and saved myself the stress by not just pushing it under the rug, cuz greed controls or even mutes him and it would just happen again... So, I think free speech being brought into question here is a bit of a double standard.

Right, so you two decided to keep having some beef - that's on y'all, not on me. I wasn't involved in that at any point, except to resolve the conflict to the extent that both parties were willing.

TSU was at the beginning, and for a long time now has resumed being, simply a curation project. The attempt at making it a "community" in and of itself was ridiculous on my part - it's just a project that supports a few different communities.

I don't really know what you're saying in your third paragraph at all.

If you're trying to make a comparison between people upvoting someone's content, and then not anymore, and down-voting someone's content, it's a very different thing.

Ex 1: I give someone a vote (worth $) on some/all of their posts for a time, and then stop doing that.

Ex 2: Other people are giving someone votes (worth $), and I down-vote it so that they don't get that money.

Healing.JPG

Hmm. It has me wondering: what are the positives of the downvote feature?

There largely isnt any reason for it.

People who spam can just be added to blacklists and we will never see their content. Downvoting is largely irrelevant

Do you think there's a chance of eliminating it then?

It could be done away with and Hive will still function and posts will be rewarded.

It would increase spam accounts making garbage content if there was no downvote.

But downvotes were a solution for a problem 5 years ago. Its 5 years later and there are much better ways of dealing with spammers, and there is blacklists, witnesses could just vote that accounts found tk be spamming or plagiarizing cant get rewards for example. Theres a lot of things that could be done differently

Blurt has none so I guess that’s the testing platform for no down votes. It’s new right now but the potential is there to see. So far never seen any abuse or anger there at all.

That could be!

Post quality could be improved but then that’s how steem started it grew over time with content.

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Check out the last post from @hivebuzz:

Saint-Nicholas challenge for well-behaved girls and boys
Feedback from the December 1st Hive Power Up Day
Hive Power Up Month Challenge - Winners List

For many who see hive as the future of social media and blogging, it'd be very sad if this is true.

Does it mean there is still a centralized system even in decentralization?

Let's see how this goes.
Although still quite new here, I'm very much on for the fight.

Hive is extremely centralized at this stage of the game.

The top witnesses pretty much all just vote for each other, and blocktrades has the stake to single-handedly decide who gets to be a consensus witness.

On the rewards side of things, the majority of upvotes, and downvotes in terms of weight, all come from just a couple dozen accounts.

The whole thing with Hive is The Code is Law... but the consensus witnesses can change the code whenever they want.

So... the folks in charge get to change the rules as they choose, and silence & financially attack anyone who questions them.

Huh... sounds familiar.

This really sounds bad then...

You know seeing this again the biggest issue is no one is willing to communicate or debate. You just wrote a long entry about how you feel and no ones even engaged with it just flagged it. That says everything. How on earth can a platform run when the people wifh the most power won’t even discuss their actions but just feel offended and flex power. It’s where fb has gotten to and why people are leaving it. I would have more respect if these downvoters on this post actually spoke to you like a human being and engaged in discord.

I'm sorry this is happening to you @kennyskitchen , you've been nothing but supportive of this chain and the quality content published on here.

Hmmmmnnn wow I learned a lot

Interesting!!

Thanks for talking about this. Hive is fast going the way of big tech with the blockchain thought police cartel controlled cancel culture here. Gotta love the last minute targeting. My recently published (4 days ago now), highest payout post ever and most popular in a while was also just zeroed out by yours truly, after reaching 290 in rewards, immediately following my reblogging of this post:

https://peakd.com/hive-122315/@jasonliberty/10-reasons-people-choose-not-to-get-the-injection-totally-experimental-highly-ineffective-demonstrably-dangerous

One wonders if it might be retaliation for the reblog as it deviates from the typical day 5/6 pattern that’s been the norm for a month now. Also the targeting of @ura-soul began shortly after he engaged my post on the targeting of my content. That I am one of the few being systematically targeted out of all of the content creators dissenting from establishment narrative I have no idea, but strange it all started with a single conversation I had with a fellow targeted user…

What has become clear is these few anti-truth whales have serious psychological issues and control freak complexes. @lucylin still getting every single post downvotes for 8 months straight now I believe. It’s one way to kill a thriving platform I guess, but that they are actually targeting content promoting hive boggles the mind and shows they really don’t care about the future of the blockchain and whether it’s a success or not, but only whether content (creators) they can’t stand don’t make more money than they deem acceptable on here.

It’s one way to kill a thriving platform I guess

Let's see, you mentioned in total 4 content creators who've gotten downvoted in the past few months, while we've onboarded over 250 in the same time who don't just post controversial no fact "truths", yes, yes, hive is dying.

Want to know the only people interested in a platform like Hive without the rewards?

Truthers, independent journalists, whistleblowers, activists, and all the other people who get deleted off the big corporate media platforms for not pushing the violent narrative.

Guess where those people are going? Certainly not Hive. They've been leaving Hive/Steem like a sinking ship for some time now.

Don't worry though, I'm sure once the purification is through, and it's impossible to find anything that might be "controversial" without a specialized front-end, then Hive can explode into the big leagues.

Honestly, I'm starting to see very little downside to dropping the "social media" experiment completely, and cutting the inflation of rewards pool out completely as well. Seems like a win/win for the blockchain itself, and the stakeholders. Then the social media side can HF away into something else (maybe not with the name of a publicly traded blockchain company and a CIA program)

Then stop crying over rewards and invite more of those people. Not even the ones pretending to defend you in these drama fueled posts care enough to engage on your usual overrewarded posts and the same goes for most of the content creators you guys use all that stake for.

Why in the hell would I keep inviting people to a platform that is clearly full of rich assholes who are against them?

I've dedicated the entire last 5.5 years of my life to this blockchain (as I've laid out in another comment that you ignored, because it didn't feed your narrative), because I believed in what it could have been.

Unfortunately Proof of Stake just means that this place is a perfect microcosm of any other State, where the wealthy elite get to do whatever they want, and everyone else be damned.

Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me for years straight, shame on me.

I'm going to be switching gears and actively warning everyone against the use of Hive for anything besides Splinterlands (statistically almost the only thing people use it for now anyway)

Youve been well rewarded for your dedication. I guess you felt the chain owed you more for whatever value you think you've brought here which is minimal if any, looking at how you literally have no audience most of the time. feel free to ignore that fact once more but I'm sure deep down you know what a fake you are and the content you share having spun off the internet from a niche so small most people literally don't know it exists or care if it does.

Hey look, nothing but imagined personal attacks again.

It really is amazing how good you & @azircon are at proving the point that we are all making about you being immature authoritarians.

You're not going to get me triggered for some kind of response with these attempts - you're simply building the case against yourself.

Oh no, your nonexistent audience is going to not give hive a try. What a sore fucking loser.

Keep digging pal, keep digging.

At the beginning of this conversation, you were attempting the illusion of being the rational, grounded one, facing off against a bunch of "drama"

How quickly your holier-than-thou attitude shifts from faux-righteousness to simply adolescent attacks and a complete refusal to have conversation.

I really feel sorry for you guys. The level of overcompensation, projection, and lashing out is pretty indicative.

maybe not with the name of a publicly traded blockchain company and a CIA program

lol you know it's a mining company that do nothing with blockchain and spewing CIA like a dumbass won't make it any more true mr truther. What a fucking joke all of you incels are.

You're ignoring what I said in an attempt to mock me, instead of having a conversation (as one expects from censors.)

  1. There is a publicly traded company called "Hive Blockchain" - that existed long before our fork away from Steem.
  2. There is a CIA program, designed to give them more access & control of people's computers, launched (publicly at least) in 2010, called Hive.

That makes the naming of our fork either an intentionally bad choice, or an unintentionally bad choice - pretty much guarantees that we lose the SEO battle, and that people will continue talking about this being a CIA operation (especially with folks trying to cleanse it of anything the government doesn't want said.)

To be clear, I'm not saying that this Hive is that CIA Hive (which launched half a decade before steem even did), I'm saying that "Hive" was an extremely poor choice of name, in part because of that CIA operation.

I raised all of these issues at the time Hive was named. My current job involves naming businesses and branding at times - it's something I am well versed at. The crowd at the time simply ridiculed any dissenting voices and so here we are.

There really are at least two threads of humanity at this time, with widely different understandings of what is transpiring on Earth - it would be healthy for the two to understand each other, unite and improve harmony/peace. However, that would require all involved to get down from high horses, walk out from behind defence mechanisms and stop propagating the divide and conquer psychology that we are all imprinted with at an early age by those seeking to dominate the global tax farm.

No matter what, everyone is going to their right place - though many don't know what that means yet. Hive is a symbol of free will expression and possibilities - so those who seek to maintain those will likely find ways to recreate the potential on Hive, whether it be using Layer 2 or forks. Numerous Hive whales know this and are basically waiting to find out which option works best overall before choosing their own path.

There are far more than 4, I only mentioned a few to make a point. But more importantly, claiming what we report to be ‘no fact’ truth without ever disputing the claims and source material with any evidence does nothing to demonstrate a lack of factual reporting on our part. Maybe instead of rampant downvoting, engage in debate, dispute claims with counter claims, challenge our source material with alternative source material, you know, attempt to show that our ‘truths’ are indeed devoid of facts as you claim.

What?! Actually being open to debate, or any form of challenging their preconceived beliefs? Actually presenting evidence? Counter claims?

That's something a dangerous anti-government conspiracy theorist would recommend!

It's simple, you're speaking heresy, and they won't have it.

Screenshot_20211204-204719_Chrome.jpg
I was recently hit with this also and was shocked but after reading this post now it's clear what's going on.

I had my highest up vote ever and then it got downvoted over $100. I was just starting to enjoy using this blog.. maybe we need a new way to support each other so that we dont get to discouraged?

This is why I like the concept of Blurt, however it simply doesn't have enough engagement at the moment for my liking.

Agreed, maybe in time when a few more people of been pissed off! LOL

The biggest problem I have is there is no reason given for the flags in the comments.

Having spoken directly to the Curangel people, they made it clear that they don't want to provide any reasons and actually that they pride themselves on not being reasonable.

Was there any reason given to 3 near $100 upvotes?

I just downvoted a over rewarded post of yours. My reason is "disagreement on rewards". I am also DV this comment as I don't think it's worth $6.

How about the entirety of trending? Those posts are 200 to 400 usd.

Will we see you downvoting those?

I only have a limited account size, and I often drain my entire DV mana. So I have a limited ability but with your help it will be slightly better :)

Consider helping myself and smooth and a few others out, we are the minority

8000A8D7-80B2-4DF3-9A51-A7328D8340F0.jpeg

Correction: You only downvote content that causes you cognitive dissonance, and give precisely 0 fucks about "the blockchain" or anything else besides your pocket book, and your dogmatic authoritarian ideology.

I don’t care about your corrections or your opinions. I am not in charge of your emotional intelligence or health :)

It's obvious that you do care, your cognitive dissonance is stirring, because you keep lashing out with more and more down-votes, more holier-than-thou attitude, and more sarcastically rude comments.

I take responsibility for my life, my actions, my words, my reality - that's the beauty of finding freedom & sovereignty. I don't have to lash out at others, throw around my "weight" to feel big, make threats against people over the internet, or otherwise try to exert control on those around me - because I'm confident in my own Self.

I also don't have a fragile ego or any self-worth issues for your attempts at mockery to trigger.

Keep digging the hole you're standing in though, by all means.

Bottle of Sam Adams on trending says we aren't having a good time over here LOLz🤣 thanks for the explanation.

Not my beer of choice :)

Craft or local beer only :)

And I saw that too.

Just started trying local craft beers, my wife even picked up a growler 😁

Excellent! I hope you never go back to Sam Adams :)

The main issue is that DV is not necessary at all. If it is then it needs to be better clarified in the Whitepaper.

III.1. Delegated Proof of Stake Pg.5
Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS) is the consensus algorithm behind Hive. In a DPoS algorithm, the selection of block producers (called ’witnesses’ on Hive) and all other consensus-based functions are decided based on the weight of staked funds supporting them. Stakeholders hold the highest prominence in DPoS. DPoS consensus is considered to be the most inclusive and the least centralized of all the blockchain protocols.2 DPoS was first invented by Dan Larimer as a functional alternative to the Proof of Work system introduced with Bitcoin. Other prominent DPoS blockchains include BitShares and EOS; they are originally based on Larimer’s Graphene framework.

V.5. Content Monetization pg.8
During that time it may be curated upwards or downwards through upvotes and downvotes until its final value is determined at the end of the 7 day...

V.6. Distributing Rewards Pg.9
When a user submits a post it initiates a 7 day curation window during which it may be upvoted or downvoted until its final evaluation is reached at the end of 7 days.

https://hive.io/whitepaper.pdf

Only two sentences for explanation of downwards voting.

Why is there only downvoting on posts? Why not add it to witness voting and proposals as well or just eliminate it from Hive all together.

Why not craft a proposal on this @ura-soul?

Also should we mention EOS and Bitshares as prominent or at all in our whitepaper?

I think downvoting does have its uses, like to 'hide' hate speech or some kind of blatant political extremism. Even disagreement with rewards. The tune of 200$ on a well put together post though? Not sure that was necessary. Hurts getting hit like that. And since I showed my happy face over here, I've been put on 'their' radar and already being targeted. Is what it is. See what happens when somebody says something? Just saying. Least I got a reason though 😂

Seems like you might be more open to applying downvoting equally to all aspects of DPoS Staked voting consensus. I personally think the way the whitepaper was written only protects the witnesses ranking, the proposals they want to pass or influence others proposals. I do not want to assume it was intentional but I do feel it is up to us to better clarify or apply DPoS in a more fair way as the Whitepaper is very clear about how DPoS applies to witness voting and proposals and defines the processes but it is not clear why downvoting was only applied to content.

Ya I would, there are several 'proposals' being passed I think are total bullshit and if I could 'downvote' them, I would. I don't even understand how they are even up there. The 'stabilizers' aren't having any real effect as HBD has not stayed pegged. I mean, the whole point of adjusting payouts via HIVE/HP/HBD is what keeps it there. $2k+ *still a week for keychain? I mean, now you're just paying them to do nothing because there have been no updates to it in a couple months. Not that it even needs any (I love keychain btw) and there are a few others that make no sense. Is what it is though. I can talk 'til I'm blue in the face, but I don't quite have the HP to back it all up (yet).

Interesting then I encourage you write a proposal to include consensus voting for witnesses and proposals, I will support no doubt and you have stronger community support than I. Truly, that was plan B for me if this did not gain traction. Still yet most important objective for this proposal was bring awareness and provide a workable solution that would encourage a stronger and more cohesive community for Hive.

I was asking for downvotes on witnesses in 2017, but nobody listened to me.

The way I see it, it will take enough people to come here and change the culture, otherwise attrition will slowly win.

Education, timing and awareness is key. I do not expect this to get passed at all but already has way more votes than expected. I think it is time for change to start to happen in regards to taking ownership as a community or at least letting them know we can make proposals to better our institution that is built upon this Whitepaper and make a more fair DPoS future/foundation to build upon. Proposals are not just for money! Rock Rock Planet Rock, I want my planet Back!

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I personally don't think that is a smart thing to do. Whales are healthy for the system. When you apply Downvotes to a DPoS system to one out of three aspects I have to wonder who wrote the whitepaper in a way to prevent downvotes on witnesses and proposals.

A simple elimination of the words

or downwards and downvote in the whitepaper will allow for everyone to live together peacefully

If anyone can get a proposal passed to eliminate the DVs from posts you are certainly one of them. @enginewitty

There is no reason in the world that will make them accept, if you ever try downvoting people for disagreement of rewards and leave a comment explaining it most will result in endless discussions about everything. Downvotes are already not rewarding for the downvoter, I doubt people will want to on top of that spend countless hours debating them. Trust me, I've had my fair share of endless discussions and then having literal morons follow me around attacking and calling me all sorts of things for doing so.

Figured I'd give you another reason than the usual "well why are all the autovoters not stating a reason why they are voting up said content".

Just hurts the feels is all. I think the autovoting though, is more of a trust issue built over time. Everyone I have in there, I'm pretty sure is going to put out at least a decent post worth somebody's time and so I am not ashamed to help them grow. I scroll through the votes and see who posted what, and it really is a time saver for me and my little community efforts. 😉

Not everyone takes care of their autovotes well, especially if it's delegated or posting keys they give someone else control over it's way easier to abuse when said whales are AFK.

My reason for DV'ing this comment is disagreement on rewards.

haha, sly one. I think some constructive criticism while downvoting can always help to ease the conflict/tension. I hate the "disagreement on rewards" stance though, since you are saying content is overrated without giving a concrete reason. Also value can be quite subjective.

On the other hand I can understand why having the same discussion over and over again can be tiresome. The convos are always the same when I look into the comments of a downvote war. I also don't really have a horse in the race when it comes to truthers vs "non-truthers", but I would prefer if these wars are won with arguments instead of 'whose friends have the bigger wallet?'.

This is why no one takes u guys seriously and why it becomes even more apparant that you only care about the rewards. Embarrassing.

You cant take what someone with negative 4 rep says, whose comment is at the bottom of a post to be what any of us believe in

That minus 4 rep guy isnt anyones leader or someone who represents any of us at all. It is embarrassing to see someone claim steem or hive is cia.

We dont just care about rewards.

Trending page where all the whales upvote super bad content that can be found on Twitter or Instagram is 3x to 4x what the rewards are for our content. When will we see whales banding together to protect the rewards pool by zeroing out low effort posts making 200 to 400 usd, color challenges, travel blogs, food recipes that look gross, fluff nonsense about crypto prices going up with no analysis, most of trending inspire garbage.

Hive is going to see a huge influx of more and more of this and we look like a laugh stock. Super majority of posts on trending are hot garbage and worth almost nothing, stuff a 9th grader would blog about. And that isnt my or anyone in this groups doing.

I don't disagree, I've let it be for a while now as the pump just happened but it's not something people should get used to nor something we should accept long term. If you check ocdb's votes, there's maybe 1-2 posts per day that we give a bigger vote to (above 8%) as we want to give people realistic rewards. Cause of the recent spike we're also voting on many hbd.funder comments per day because there has not been that much of an influx of new users yet to make up for the increase in price and the rewards we can dish out. It wouldn't hurt for others to do the same or look for underrewarded posts than just keep stacking votes on the usual well earners.

Also you can't just scapegoat a -4 rep user when he's literally signing his main account - though I'm unsure how involved he's been or who is in what circle, etc.

Yeh I got no idea which the minua 4 rep guy is.

Thanks for your response.

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LADY!
THIS is the Definition of Projection.

Yeah, the CIA talk is a bit much. Context is everything and if frot pointed out that Dan L. was a former pentagon employee who was influential in creating darpa than that would be enough to let people make their own assumptions. I think Kenny was pretty distraught after such an attack on his post promoting Hive. He has done so much in keeping a positive mindset in regards to the DV situation. He has really kept me honest in my perception of Hive as well and has been a staunch supporter of your efforts at least in private with me.

I have nothing against him neither, I'm personally not a fan of overusing downvotes which some projects do seem to do. It's much healthier to scatter them over many posts instead and remove part of the rewards than focus point big downvotes on a couple authors from time to time.

If anyone is attempting to use downvotes for over-rewarded posts in a common sense way it is you from what I can tell especially with following the rabbit to key instances where you are 100% right in why you downvote. Totally appreciate you recognizing the situation as unbalanced in certain regards and open it seems to providing solutions with your logical reasoning and time directed to these issues past just I dont like rewards.

Well thanks for being openminded about it, what's annoying is that when I do that the affected authors and everyone in their circle just start attacking and comparing everything else you do which ends up in endless discussions that waste my time even more - when I'm there trying to explain why I'm placing the downvotes. So it's certainly not surprising to me that others such as smooth tend to not even attempt to explain them which they then use as a way to illegitimize his downvote activity when they well know by now that there are no sentences in the universe that would be said to get them to accept them in the first place.

Seems there are two very healthy and real possibilities to solve this issue in a productive way.

We need to either apply the downvote protocol to witnesses voting and proposals to solidify the better functionality of DPoS or eliminate the words or downwards and downvote in the whitepaper that will allow for everyone to live together peacefully.

I suppose a third option is viable and that would be to add an amendment to whitepaper better clarifying why there is downvotes applied to only one of the three DPoS protocols.

Which 99% of the time means it's only about the rewards and always has been. Some interesting screenshots in the updated post of @logiczombie though, showing that kenny and some others have been self-voting all along with large stakes in their trails, etc.

Just my opinion, Self voting can be abused when it is done in a way to only support yourself. But Kenny imo is not abusing the HP delegated to him as he also delegates HP to others and from what I can tell only upvotes himself 1% of the time in comparison to the 99% of the instances where the HP is used to support content of others that is high quality.

In all fairness, his last post was on Vitalik but sad still nonetheless. The video on this computer guy is way cool though!