In the last two weeks I discussed both a "young earth" creation interpretation for Genesis 1 and an "old earth" creation interpretation.
Today we look at an additional interpretative option.
A Hebrew literary framework
But first we summarize:
Wearing my religious hat; I have no problem with God being able to create the earth or even the entire universe in seven twenty four hour periods. That was my opinion on the creation in my childhood and youth. He is omnipotent and therefore can do anything that is expedient for Him.
As I hit high school I found fulfilment for my passion in the natural sciences and they became my favorite subjects. I have always been fascinated by how everything works, from plants to animals to the earth and the universe.
Now wearing my natural sciences hat; I see plenty of evidence both biological and geological, geomorphological and astronomical that indicate that the earth is older than a couple of thousand years. That the processes by which the rock sequences of the earth have been deposited and changed over the years are well preserved and easy to interpret, once one has learned the language of rocks.
The story in the geological record as preserved is very consistent. It has since been strengthened by the use of isotope dating for rocks containing radioactive minerals and by paleontological sequencing for rocks containing fossils. Biology and Genetics are now piling up further mountains of evidence that all continue to present and confirm the same picture. Astrophysics, and observations of the celestial bodies surrounding us confirm what we see on earth occurring all around us.
The Earth is very old and has arrived at its current highly complex state through iterative processes with each layer of complexity relying upon and being built upon the slightly simpler layer before it.
This level of understanding did not cause me to question my faith but simply to examine the depth of my knowledge and understanding.
I came across interpretations that allowed for longer periods for Genesis days – an “old earth creation”.
This sufficed for a while but as I studied the creation account I began to see discrepancies of sequence even in an “old earth creation” interpretation as discussed here
Once again this did not prompt a questioning of faith but simply a quest to delve deeper and broaden my understanding of all facets of the matter even more.
I then came across the framework hypothesis; a third possible way too look at the Genesis creation.
To approach Genesis using the framework hypothesis one needs to understand Hebrew writing styles and literary devices. The ancients wrote very differently to us today and so these devices are not readily apparent to the modern reader. I fact the West’s understanding and rediscovery of these devices is somewhat recent, with some only a century or two old. Some of these devices are composed of repeating element in various orders depending on the type of device chosen.
One simply need to study the Genesis account in great detail and then the repetitive elements of the framework become glaringly obvious.
So what does the detail of the Genesis creation account reveal?
Let’s look at each day and how it relates to all the other days and discover the repeated elements.
Each day begins with the phrase “And God said, Let…” and ends with the sentence “And the evening and the morning were the … day.”
These can be seen as the opening parenthesis ( { )and closing parenthesis ( } ) defining the beginning and end of each group of elements in the structure.
Let’s now look at the repeated elements within each grouping.
When laid out in this manner it is plain to see that there are many repeated elements laid out in a very intricate and progressively more complex structure.
Days 1 and 4 are parallels of one another as are 2 and 5 and 3 and 6.
Days 3 and 6 are the final day and most complex days of a pair of triads.
All elements from days 2 and 3 and days 5 and 6 are tied together and wrapped up neatly on the most elaborated day, day 6
Day seven is screamingly unique, so much so, that one may consider it with a sort of emphasis in relation to the entire account.
Suddenly, when viewed at this level of detail it becomes very apparent that the account is simply the means of conveying a far deeper and more complex message, much like The Master Teacher would later do with his parables.
Cool post @gavvet
However, the age of this earth can not be calculated correctly, although there are various predictions. I believe God exists, and everything has been created from nothing...
That's another perspective to adopt
Yups :)
*Interesting article and as previously stated I believe that alot of the Bible is not literal as well and it has several levels of understanding. I have several points and a theory to share as well.
*I have indeed read the Bible (King James version) from beginning to end. It took me a year and a half because I was actually looking up words in the dictionary.
*As I recall in the Bible, a day to God is like a thousand years.
*According to archeological findings, the oldest human bones are as old or older than dinosaurs.
*According to science. The Earth is like 13 billions year old.
*In my perception the story of creation happened in a span of Eons and Adam and Eve were not the first humans that were created. Thats why God said "Lets us (more than one) create man in our image and it was good. It was good, why? Was it bad before?
*I have theory concerning the fall of man: It is that when Man/Woman got kicked out of the garden of Eden to prevent Man/Woman from becoming like them the Gods (Extreme Concern of the Gods) because in the Bible: King James: Genesis - 22 "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life".
*The theory is when Adam and Eve got evicted from the Garden Of Eden that means that Man/Woman DNA was shut down. Thus reducing life span, health, size, abilities, psychic abilities, basically everything including the ability to easily be in contact or/and experience the spiritual realm. Thus the fall of man/woman (summarization)
*Happy Sun - Day.
Popping my head in here long after, it's just a really great discussion and content from @gavvet . Just wanted to throw 2 cents in quick.
If the creation took eons and say Adam and Eve weren't the first, what then happens to original sin?
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
There is also the question that should be asked, was the Bible written by men or were the scriptures in the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit (God) and written by men?
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV
You should check out Kent Hovind's creation seminars if you haven't already, he takes a very scientific approach to subject and makes some great arguments.
Hold on to those thoughts, I hope to get into the details of the fall in coming weeks and yes I love the KJV.
Archaeology(more specifically paleoanthropology) does have old human bones but not as old as the dino's. Dino's made it till about 70 million years ago. The earliest bipedal apes are just a few million yeas old.
You are correct. Officially the oldest humanoid bones is "'Lucy' is a collection of fossilised bones that once made up the skeleton of a hominid from the Australopithecus afarensis species. She lived in Ethiopia 3.2 million years ago" . Still way older than 7000 years.
I said that because I did come across an article a few years ago that stated that humanoid bones have been found that were older than Dinosaurs period. I am going to see if I find it but perhaps I shouldn't have put that there without checking out to see if the source of it still available.
I personally don't think that there were dinosaurs in that respect and if there were, they probably were giant birds.
Yes, I'll hold on to those thoughts. I do like talking about that. If you like mention me or notify me when you post about creation or other similar subject so I can get in board on time. If not I'll see if I find it on time. Much love, peace and blessings. 🙏🏽
I dont get it .Are you trying to tell us there is more left out or more added to it .
One thing is very clear tho, that your level of understanding dilates as one grows so please let me know what you are trying to put forward here..
I think he wants to understand us evolution...
I don't know what to believe, personally I have never thought about in this way before so thanks for this perspective.
The devastation of the Flood (which i believe was world wide) made changes in the earth that would take millions of year to normally happens. like the gran cayon in Arizona just to mention one. in the formation of the earth there were process acceleration. just like the creation of man. God made a grown man that at age of one had the characteristic of a man of 30 probably. same happened to the earth.
Hello my friend
I love to rest on you
Are you fine ?
To enjoy nature, is to enjoy God, they are one in the same.
God is not nature. God can exist quite comfortably without creation. Not the other way around though.
Yes, you are right. Thanks
Allegations against the Bible are often related to the challenges inherent in the work of translation. Most of these problems have a very simple explanation, if you do a little digging in commentaries or other study aides that deal with the original Hebrew and Greek, you may find the answers.
Congratulations @gavvet!
Your post was mentioned in my hit parade in the following category:
I think it is a truly 24 hour time frame. As the bible speaks of....There will be signs in the heavens, and in the stars and in the moon. Reflecting that the moon and stars both present at a night time dark hours, if that makes sense. Thanks for sharing
Definitely a fascinating debate. I promise to try to keep up next week. My brain hurts a little. :) Following.
I always understood seven "days" more as seven "steps".
That is a simple way to explain it but a better way to look at it vs believing an all powerful creator is confined to 24 hour time constraints.
I recommend watching this documentary on Netflix. It's pretty interesting.
Highly sensitive subject
Good keep it up
And it will likely get even more sensitive next week, If I get around to discussing organic evolution...
The problem that I have with the old earth theory of evolution is that it directly contradicts that sin brought death and decay into the world. I have no problem believing that God could have created the earth to appear old.
Hold onto those thoughts, more to come on these matters.
Well, sometimes digging deeper to something leads to over repeated arguments especially about faith in general.
Even Genesis up to The Book of Revelation only comprise a portion that relates to our faith. These books are guides, but we have our role to do and follow as good examples on these teachings written.
Faith is incomprehensible of its own.
If we talk of Genesis alone it would be a tiny portion, and we dig deeper to it, it will turn into pieces because of its littleness.
Anyways, please correct me.
Comment on my comment.
All for the Glory of the Almighty!
To me it makes no sense that the writer (we assume Moses) would have been purposely trying to write in a particular way. I think he was just trying to write down the facts.
The Bible is not a scientific document, it would be over the heads of its ancient audience, also ancient Hebrew writing is more poetic and structured than it is factual.
Form was most important to ancient writers and extensive poetic license with the details was taken to accomplish a well structured piece.
The ancient audience could not take it home and repeatedly read it for themselves. The poetic nature and repetitive elements aided memory and recall after hearing the passages read in gatherings.
One simply needs to memories the first part of the structure and then that acts as the prompt for the remainder of the structure.
Something I learned in the last month.
Genesis 1:27 - God created man...
Genesis 2:7 - God formed man from the dust...
Man and woman was created before they were formed of the dust of the Earth. We were created in the image of God, and God is a spirit. Then after we were created, God formed man of the dust, and formed woman from a rib of man.
Great study and writing....need to think as well as we study this article...then we will understand more easily...
Eye opening post!
glad you liked it
A lot of these interpretations go in the line of:
Writer: "The door was red."
Critic: "Oh, the door is a gateway to your soul, and it's red because you are so concerned about the staggeringly high unemployment rate, and about how the Government is fiddling with gas prices?"
Writer: "THE DOOR WAS FUCKING RED!!!"
@gavvet Very thought-provoking! Here's something the Bible has to say about it:
Isaiah 55:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
2 Peter 3:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
So, your question falls into this category and no the 7 days were not our 24-hour days.
Great post.
glad you liked it
I doubt it was since a day in the context of God can be any length of time.
Great Post!
Agreed
What is a "day" to God- an entity that is eternal? What conceivable use could God have for time? Genesis was written the way it was to give we lowly mortals a framework from which to understand that the Earth was created in 6 phases. Time, outside of Earth is meaningless... it's merely a convenience that allows us to keep track of things in a linear, temporal setting. Whoops... God's calling letting me know it's 4:35 HST (Heaven Standard Time)
Exactly
I haven't read all of the bible yet but the idea I get from it is that much of it figurative and not to be taken literally, especially the Garden of Eden story and Genesis in general. It's like you said, there is a far deeper and more complex message in the Bible then I think most people will ever know, because they will only ever read it at face value.
Well put.
Hi, I wonder what exactly you mean by the term "evidence".
evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
Thanks, but I'm afraid, that doesn't tell anything. It's kind of tautological. What constitutes a fact then?
Regarding the meaning of the word evidence or facts, may I refer you to a dictionary as I did above?
The debate around what constitutes evidence, facts and information is ongoing. Specialists in a field will have a greater grasp of information pertaining to that field and are persuaded differently to non-specialists, hence there will always be differing perspectives on what constitutes evidence or fact and how much is required to be swayed thereby.
Having delved heavily into the natural sciences I am persuaded that the highly correlating data from many diverse fields reveals a highly consistent picture .
Is the picture complete? Far from it, but I am significantly persuaded to entertain the prospect that the earth is very old and therefore evaluate the Biblical creation account to see if it can accommodate that prospect.
I am happy to entertain two seemingly conflicting perspective in the effort to find any middle ground should it exist.
I realize I'm late to the party, but I wrote this as a direct response to this article, and so much ignorance within the youtube comments sections concerning videos with any sort of controversial ideas. I'm not on steemit to make money so rest assured this is not a shameless plug to get more upvotes. I'm sharing because based on what you have said, you may enjoy it and be able to add to or critique it if necessary.
https://steemit.com/creationist/@ryeis1/science-vs-religion-you-re-doing-it-wrong
Your slides are classic!!!
Thanks! I admit I was snickering under my breath as I was making them.
Thank you for the somewhat detailed response. I appreciate it. I wonder what your worldview is?
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
Would you agree that evidence can't be anything else than an interpretation, controlled by the presuppositions or fundamental believes of ones worldview?
Yes I am a Christian and I think it would be accurate to say evidence is in the eye of the beholder, but that does not prevent me from exploring for common ground between seemingly contradictory worldviews.
To the Christian there is Biblical "evidence" the the earth etc. was created by God. To the Scientist there is "evidence" that the earth was formed through natural and increasingly more understood processes.
Is it possible that God used natural processes to create the earth and left a record for us to discover through our own effort? We are promised that all things will be revealed, does all of the revelation have to be divine or can some be discovered by or own efforts, like for instance flight and many other technical advances.
I see no "evidence" to refute that possibility besides perhaps a few narrow interpretations of the scriptural account.
I think it is beneficial to broaden our minds, after all we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Sometimes we should try that intellectually and challenge ourselves a little.
Ok, I see. What would you say is your highest authority especially regarding epistemology? By that I mean, how do you know what is true or, maybe better, what your standard of truth is.
Good subject, always actual!
thanks
I love looking at things from different perspectives. I am glad I found you this morning as I was pondering this myself. Look forward to reading the deeper delving. Following, upvoted and resteemed. Have a blessed day.
Glad to be of service.
A good analysis about the biblical story of the creation. Thanks for sharing
Thank you.
welcome
שלום
The length of days are significant but not upmost significant. Here's why.
Most of us understand that breisheet (genesis/origins) are well aligorical. This is to say HaSh-m created the earth in seven days, signifying the seventh as the shabbat(day of rest).
More over, let's look deeper. He created the darkness and light. And He chose light. Are you seeing the pattern? Sanctification or the act of seperating.
Up until day 6, I've heard many rebbe state that each day could've lasted thousands of years. Yet, day seven only twenty four hours.
Good read. Upvoted you. May your wisdom exceed your performance.
Differentiation is what I referred to it as, or the "act of separating" and then sanctifying is a repeated theme in each of the days highlighted above.
Very Good Post. Though scientist not believe the existence of God and creation of species in Earth by God . Scientist believe creation of species by process of evolution.
scientist is a broad categorization, there are diverse opinions
You know a day is tied to the rotation of the earth. I assume when God created light and darkness that he was creating the entire universe? A bit weird to talk about days on earth if the creation was for the whole universe?
Did the ancients know the earth rotated?
Actually the author of Genisis, believed to be Moses, who spent most of his life in a desert or herding sheep was very clear the Earth orbited around the sun. In Genesis he may not have explained it so succinctly but he was none the less very clear, lets look at Genesis 1:14 (KJV)
and for seasons
That is very uncomfortable for any evolutionist thinker...
If the sun orbitted around the earth, there would not be seasons.
It is only by the earth orbitting the sun with an angled axis can we have the seasons!
and on the topic of creation...
It seems to me that the blog above believes in the power or a Creator but does not believe the Creator can create something already aged, for example, the birds created were already able to fly or does the author believe they were just embrios waiting to hatch? If He can create an embrio, surely God can create a fully functioning animal, right?
The links to the whole series is at the bottom of this post, many of the questions you raise her are covered there.
https://steemit.com/religion/@gavvet/65xomk-were-the-seven-days-of-creation-in-genesis-seven-twenty-four-hour-periods-some-conclusions
I checked your links but I do not see you addressing these issues;
For Seasons
You need to explain how your long earth concept work within the biblical framework... Moses was very clear that moon and stars were for the seasons. The only explanation for this is planet earth on a 24 hour rotation (necessary for our gravity) with a tilted axis, orbitting around the sun.
Creation
Does the author believe;
1 God can create?
2 That God can create anything at any point in time?
These are the fundamental questions which I cannot find answers to within the posts listed.
Thank you and God bless
Coal can be produced in 36 weeks or less.. not millions of years
So now that the age of coal has been debunked, we can start to see that science is also learning and adjusting their views...
Given enough time, we might all believe in a young earth (ie circa 6,000 years)
Well if they didn't you can throw away the Bible since then it is obvious they didn't know a lot.
How was it obvious? The Old Testament keeps mentioning that the earth is fixed in place, but how else would YOU explain it, coming from their level of understanding of the cosmos? I mean, looking at the sky, everything about it would tell you that the heavens revolve around the earth, not the other way around.... It's easy to see that a theory with a moving earth would develop a little bit of skepticism...
Well so you made it clear that it's obvious that they didn't know what they were talking about then.
Sure, about how celestial bodies moved.... But you can be sure that they knew a whole lot about the human condition. Those stories are prehistoric. There was no science. But they weren't stupid. To write off the bible based on their lack of scientific knowledge is a little extreme. Might as well write off Dawkins and Hitchens because they don't know anything about philosophy.
I admire how have you taken a deeper look on the message of God's creation. Thanks for sharing. Upvoted and resteemed!
Thanks
Nicely written ...@gavvet
Thanks
Yes. You're on the right track. Love it. I look forward to your indepth study since I am not as familiar with the Bible as I would like to be.
I wonder if any of us are as familiar with the Bible as we would like to be :>)
My studies have been in the ancient Vedic scripture, Srimad Bhagavatam, where these topics are discussed in great detail. The successive layering... the origination of it all from sound... the Word.
There are several sections in the Bhagavatam that discuss related topics. This is one section.
https://prabhupadabooks.com/sb/2/5/26-29
I am very interested in hearing your realizations inspired by the Bible. Thank you for taking this on.
There is always too much to study and too little time...
Good post. One of the first that introduced me to this line of thinking was Robert Alter, in his book The Art of Biblical Narrative. It opened my eyes to a whole new way of looking at the Bible, while still being faithful to its intent. Rather than treating the Bible like a history or science textbook, we read it as sacred story. He argues that the Genesis account was never meant to be read literally, as a word for word historical account of how things came to be. It isn't its historicity that makes it true, but its resonance with our experience of God and the human condition. A literalist interpretation is more a product of the Enlightenment and the rise of science (which benefited us, but also screwed us up in many ways), and Scripture has really only been read that way for a couple hundred years or so.
Yup, each chapter of the bible is best read from the perspective of who it was written by and who was the intended audience.
We do the bible a disservice when we try to project our modern biases into its interpretation.
@gavvet you good
it appears that day and night as we recognize it wasn't really defined until the 4th day of creation. Whether the days are consecutive 24/7 where each day of creation could have lasted say 700 milllion years, or discrete intervals of time, I don't think is too important.
another thing about 7 in the bible is that it can mean infinity.
Yup plenty of possibilities beyond the literal when it came to the ancients.
No.
I argue that it was one of gods days. Who knows how he tells time.
I am a Hindu by birth but I have equal interest in all religions. Some interesting facts you share which otherwise I wouldn't have not know. Thanks!! Will follow you for more. Cheers!!!
good question i guess it depends on how long it took for a day at the time - i am a follower now
In religion we have different views. But its wise to believe that there is God @gavvet
http://www.controversyextraordinary.com/2017/06/biblical-science-origin-of-mankind.html?m=1
Not to get to religious but you have to consider what "time" is when taking into consideration of the Genesis story. We experience time by the rotation of the earth and its revolution around the sun. So how can one measure time before time even existed?
In short time is an illusion based on our perspective here on earth. As you move towards the speed of light time ceases to exsit. As you get physically further from earth time for you slows while it keeps going on earth.
In short time if you were to measure a year in space and a year on earth they would not be the same. Time is relative based on your perspective.
So to answer your orginal question no it would not be 24 hours. Genesis is definitely an allegory for somthing quite deeper about human existence and the zodiac.
well put.
Are you a believer in Genesis about the "firmament" and the literal interpretation?
https://steemit.com/religion/@gavvet/were-the-seven-days-of-creation-in-genesis-seven-twenty-four-hour-periods-delving-a-little-deeper
Fantastic post. I'm a Christian myself, a huge studier of both the scriptural texts, and the Eastern Hebrew writing, and science. There are so many things in the ancient Hebrew writing that so many western english speakers/readers completely miss.
Always fascinating to see other people on the same studies as myself.
Yup, we have to step out our modern selves if we truly want to understand ancient scripture.
@gavvet God divided light and darkness so they could constantly and regularly succeed each other. The completion of the first day brought light to the world. The first day of the week was the same day Christ rose from the dead.
The first three days were preparation for the last three, there are open skies, deep oceans and dry land which needed to be occupied. There has been light for three days without the sun. On the fourth day He said; "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate day from night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years. The sun, moon and stars enable us to determine time, months, years and seasons. It is the stars which give us the accurate time of day and not our clocks. Months are measured by the moon and the position of the sun the seasons. The rotation of the earth around the sun, the year. Time on earth is regulated by these lights in the sky. For the traveler, the stars and sun are also a reliable compass.
There are many miracles in the detail of creation, especially in the placement of the lights in the sky and these are all a detailed part of God's plan.
The length of the year,
the distance of the earth from the sun,
the length of seasons,
the time between harvests,
the rate of plant growth,
the intensity of the sunlight,
the reflected light of the moon, for our restful sleep,
the length of day and night.
Yes, the seven days of creation is still a 24 hour period!
Source: Christ in Genesis. The God of Creation
Disciple's Study Bible NIV 1984
@frieda
I'd agree there's something going on with using seven days..
7 is an important number, so is 3, will discus more on numbers next time
Ha!
You left us hanging and I was expecting to be enlightened because this sounds very intriguing. Thank you for sharing this concept.
Waiting for more! :)
great, didn't wan't to make it toooooo long, its a taxing subject as it is
Buen post y excelentes comentarios. Gracias!!
Gracias