I enjoy debates and discussions about religion. I am personally, an outspoken Christian, who believes in God, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I believe that Jesus was on earth to die for our sins in order for us to have the opportunity to go to heaven and live and eternal live next to him.
I also believe that we all have choices to make during our lifetime, which will be judged at the end of this life. We will then either go to heaven, or we will go to hell.
It is my choice to believe this, and each of you reading this post, can make your own decision.
I am not trying to force my religion on you, so please do not try force your religion or believe on me.
It is your right to believe what you want and I also have the right to believe what I want. This article actually has nothing to do with if God exists or not.
To my fellow Christians, please do not judge me because I ask these type questions,
I have a weird mind, and I was born with it :) Not much I can do to not think and ask questions like this. I actually have an answer which worked for me further in the article.
To the Non-Christians, please read further as you might enjoy the maths :)
So back to my question:
Why does God create or make people to go to hell?
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I have been struggling with this specific question for many years, and do not believe that there is a straight forward answer. I also don’t believe that we should judge God as he made us all :)
God will never do that!
The first response I normally receive from the various conversations that I had on the subject, is that people gets upset and respond that God will never make or create people to go to hell...How can you even say or think that? (Can't tell you how many times I had this response :) . We'll that’s an easy one, God is almighty and knows everything. He knows everything in the presence, past and future. How can He not know that the person he is creating is going to hell or heaven at the point of creation?
Free Will
At this point the argument goes into a Free will conversation. We all have the freedom to choose what we want. It is through OUR incorrect choices in life and US doing the wrong things, which will end in us going to hell. He did not make or create us to go to hell. Well ...
My response to this argument is that yes we do have a free will,but God already knows which decisions we will make during our life on earth at the time of your birth.
So yes we all have a freedom to choose whatever we want and we will make the incorrect decisions during our lives, and yes it is our own fault if we make decisions which ends up in us going to hell. My point is, that He still made us even though He knew that were going to hell as he know what decisions we will make and he knows what the outcomes of our decisions will be.
God is almighty and knows everything -The bible .. each and any version tells us this.
The age old question
When a tree fells in a forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound?
For me it is logical that it should, but apparently that is not enough for the mathematicians, who went on to prove an outcome.
This age old philosophical question was further discussed and enhanced when Albert Einstein, asked his fellow physicist a similar question with, "Will the moon still exist when nobody is looking at it?" His fellow physicist replied that it will be impossible to prove or disprove, hence giving this riddle the status of what is called infallible conjecture.
A conjecture in mathematics, is a conclusion or proposition for which no proof has been found.
Schrödinger's cat
An experiment was done by an Austrian physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, where he highlighted a problem with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, applied to everyday objects.
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The experiment as follow:
Schrödinger's cat: a cat, a flask of poison, and a radioactive source are placed in a sealed box. If an internal monitor detects radioactivity (i.e., a single atom decaying), the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously dead and alive. Yet, when one looks in the box, one sees the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead. This poses the question of when exactly quantum superposition ends and reality collapses into one possibility or the other.
Article Source: Wikipedia
I am not trying to prove or disapprove anything. It is up to each and everybody to make up their own minds, study the subject of quantum mechanics and read about the experiment in more detail. I am a maths dude who enjoys maths as well as religion. My conclusion is that I can certainly believe that a cat and be dead or alive simultaneously. My logic however says, that you will not know which state a cat is in before you open the box. For me this is the answer to the question.
What I am saying is that this is yet another example, where science, and in this case mathematics can assist us, to resolve an argument about a specific subject. I am a very strong believer that there is a place for both science and religion in the world. I know a lot may differ.
But just as everything I write about, it is all my personal opinions, and I am not a specialist in any specific subject. This is just my thoughts.
So why am I telling you this?
What does the Schrödinger's cat have to do with people being born to go to hell.
Although I am not physically going to write down the mathematics for each and every one to understand. I want to refer to the above experiment to prove and make a bold statement:
God can know and not know at the same time.
He knows whether you are going to heaven or hell at the same time of not knowing whether you are going to heaven or hell. We are just not able to comprehend that such a state even exist and we are not able to understand this existence as it is just too complex and we are used to the reality that we live in.
Now the free will conversation can come back into play.
At the end of the day it is your decision whether you will go to heaven or hell. The direction you go, that is heaven or hell, will be based on your free will to make any decision and I hope we all make the correct decision, to end up in heaven.
Your comments would be appreciated.
Happy Steeming
What about this: If you decide to make a child then, you know that he will go to Hell or to Heaven right? No matter what, you still do it because you believe that you will teach him to take the right decisions for his life. How can you tell what is the right decision? There is no right decision in life because every person thinks different, and if you think you took the right decision, someone else will think otherwise.
The only thing that remains is hope. You hope that you will take the right decisions in your life, you hope to go to Heaven, you hope you don't go to Hell, you hope that your child will do the right thing and he goes to Heaven. Out there are too many factors that can change the course of your life, and you don't know them, only God knows that!
So if you hope to go to Heaven, then you must believe in God. You can't hope to go to Heaven if you don't believe that. So when you choose to hope in something, be aware of believing with all your heart into it!
I loved your post.
Great statement. Totally agree.
But here's a mistake in my opinion. Right or wrong - who has the right to claim what is right and what is wrong? The answer is obvious - the owner! Owner of some property decides what is allowed and what is forbidden. Isn't it? If you borrow a car from some person he'll tell you what you can and what you cannot do with his car. And that's how you can find the true answer what is right and what is wrong.
So when we consider our deeds towards somebody's property, we can understand what is right and what is wrong if the owner has given the terms of use. Therefore it's natural to put a question: "Who is the ultimate Owner of everything? Does such person exist? Who can say he owns everything?" And if such person exists we must obey his rules. So what is done against his will (rules) must be considered as wrong action. So simple, isn't it?
Thanks a lot. Great comment as well.
Very interesting post. It's a common question that people people ask. Why would God allow _____ to go to hell or why does ______ happen if there is a loving God?
I think of it sometimes the way my parents must view my decisions. My parents can warn me about a party being a bad idea to go to and tell me why, but simply locking me in my room each time a party is coming up is not a good relationship. Yes it may hurt my parents to be going to a party where things happen they do not approve of, but the choice is mine at that point. They are allowing me to choose because they love me, even though they do not love my decision.
God did not create us to be robots, because if he did he could have forced us to love him. The love that he created is a voluntary one. The same way a child can turn their back on a parent, we can do the same with God. There is a reason God has revealed himself to us as a father.
I wish Hell did not exist, but a perfect God cannot be in the presence of sin, and since God is loving, he allows people to sin if they want and choose not to ask for forgiveness from his son.
Another problem my pastor covered today was how once people are forgiven often don't change their lives and use this forgiveness as some sort fire insurance.
That would be akin to me loaning someone $20,000 them not being able to pay it, forgiving that debt, and instead of being greatful, going out to take another $20,000 loan from someone else with no intent to pay it back. It completely misses the point.
While I am not as into math as you are, I did like how you presented this so that everyone could feel free to participate regardless of their personal beliefs. Whether someone is an atheist or christian, there should be a level of respect and ability to discuss freely without belittling the other persons views.
Thank you for you comment and a great view. Chat soon
I will never know what God really wants. We follow his commands, not necessarily his wishes.
And what is the difference between his commands and his wishes? Why does He says not what he wishes?
Because He can lie, for instance. The same way we can lie.
Yeah, He can lie, of course. But why do you think He's lying?
My choice is believe the GOD. And I am agree with your word."I also believe that we all have choices to make during our lifetime, which will be judged at the end of this life. We will then either go to heaven, or we will go to hell."
You are a great writer man. This post is very nicely written. Keep sharing good work @jacor
Thanks a lot @funnyman!
Well @jacor I was brought up with the same beliefs as you. I also have a strange mind. I also have a lot of unanswered questions in my mind. An interesting question you might want to think about is "Do we really have a free will?"
Free will in the absolute sense of the term, no. But we have some very limited capacity of "choice".
Hi @jacor
To me it is very simple. I believe in God and that Jesus died for my sins. I don't try to prove it scientifically.
I however differ from your point that all the different religions believe in the same God. To me there is only one God and that is the God of the bible
Great article keep them coming!!
WOW!
Interesting article. I believe we follow the commandments of God and the just God follows through on his promises. And, I do believe there is a hell because the Bible says so.
But if God can lie, his commands are not necessarily his wishes
If the God is almighty what is the reason for Him to lie?
What is the reason for him to do anything? In fact, there is nothing He needs to do.
Yeah, sure! He has no duties. But He's acting to get more pleasure. In the Vedanta-sutra you'll find the statement that God is immersed in pleasure actions all the time - anandamayo 'bhyasat. So the reason for Him to act is to get more pleasure.
God never lies he is always open in everything He says or does.
This article is some serious food for thought,thanks for that! Good job.
Have a great day! :)
sitting here illuminated :D
Answers to your question after 12:00 on the video...
In hell the door is locked from the inside, not the outside.
Thanks @jacor!
Also if anyone is interested check out my post today about "Reasons to Believe" in Christianity.
In it I suggested a book What Does God Know? by William Lane Craig. This book was challenging to wrap my mind around, but provided some thought provoking discussions on Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom.
It addresses some of the questions you talk about with God knowing and not knowing.
Thank you @strangearray. I am so grateful for all the responses and comments in this article. I have so much reading to do...:)
@jacor
Your question is invalid. For example if I asked "Why does Harry Potter fly on a broomstick?" You could answer that this is how the books potray harry potter and then come up with all mathematical equations to show that you can't disprove the opposite. That's just silly, evading the question assuming that the parametres of your question are valid. they are not.
Here is the thing though
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence
A Christian has a much evidence for the existence of God, Hell and everything else in between as much as a Harry Potter book. Just because a specific religion lasted so long with all those crazy stories it doesn't make it true. Truth is not democratic. Truth needs evidence. Followers or books written 200 years ago about the existence of a being that made the entire universe is not evidence.
I wrote an extended article debanking every single proposition made my gavvet, making similar claims. Before you go on asking about God ask yourself why you believe in that God and not another? Why does the location one being born is correlated with one true God?
How do you know there are no other Gods? The answer is simply you don't know. You most likely believe because your parents believed. That is true for every religion.
Also, if you question "who made all these"? Then you should also answer "who made God?". If you believe God always existed and decided to make us play like SIMS for his enjoyment then why not accept that everything, always existed?
More questions answered here.
https://steemit.com/philosophy/@kyriacos/rebuttal-of-gavvet-s-entropy-vs-christ-a-scientific-basis-for-jesus-christ
@kyriacos, thank you for the comment. I have many friends from many religions. I do not question there believes and love to learn about it. Like I have always said, each person is a result of his/her history of experience, and the christian believe is part of my experience and history. Can I physically prove to you that God exist ? No, I can't. I guess I am just lucky that I can believe blindly, without having this to be proven to me.
@jacor
Indeed, sometimes i am jealous actually of people who believe in God. My question is this. Why do you believe in the Christian God and not a Hindu? or from an African tribe? Why is your version of God better?
I never understood how one can make the distinction in their head if they know that many other Gods exist.
You fail to distinguish between man-made gods and the God who made man. Find the real God and ignore all those that are man made.
Here's the hint: Only one religion exists where God Himself took on human form, proved he was God, died for us, and resurrected Himself as further proof.
All other man made religions try to come up with man made things that men must do to achieve something they are incapable of giving themselves - eternal life.
Jesus says none of those man-made efforts are acceptable. Let Him help you. Or not.
I actually think that it is the same God that we all believe in. The nations on earth just have different experiences and histories which skewed the translation.
I differ from you we believe in a loving God that only wants us to be what he created us to be and to tell others about Him. All the other gods demand something in return you have to proof yourself all the time. Some of the other religions want you to kill in their name do you think we are talking about the same God?
Well, let's make a definition of God. It will sort the things out. God is the source of everything, that's the first definition. It's from Vedanta (janmādy asya yataḥ). The second definition is from Vishnu-Purana (6.5.47). Parasara Muni, a great sage and the father of Vyasadeva, who compiled all the Vedic literatures, gave the following definition of God:
aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah sriyah
jnana-vairagyayos caiva sannam bhaga itingana
Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the one who is full in six opulences — who has full strength, fame, wealth, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation.
So when I'm saying I believe in God I mean that kind of God. I mean the very specific God, not just God. And from the first definition we can clearly see, that such God which is the source of everything (!) is only one. The key word is everything.
Another definition of God is "asama urdhva", which means there is no equal to Him (asama), and nobody is greater than Him (urdhva). So if we use this definitions we can't see many Gods.
@jacor
Hi, Hope you don't mind me intruding ! ... Something I believe you will enjoy if you haven't read already ...
A short story from a small collection that I love .. by Leo Tolstoy
I really hope you will enjoy this !!
When you get a chance, read or listen to "The Coffee House of Surat"
some believe in Him because He revealed himself to them...
@liondani
or so the say...or so they say.
It is much easier to propegate a lie than accept the truth...
However not all people are liars ;) Right?
and you base your faith on that? sad
A very constructive dialogue :)
Are you speaking because of self experience?
Anecdotal evidence falacy.
For me, everything about it is science. God can't be proved, bible is just an old book, that maybe a psycho wrote.. Nobody can know it. Religion = pain in the most direct way. Religion = millions of people dead because of it.
If someone could prove it, okay, it's done and we can follow him. But now it's just faction that is used to control people.
Not saying bad about the believers, but I don't need something mystical to help with my problems. God is like the last thing that a human will turn if he has a problem, since there is no other way. It's hard to explain.
I beg to differ. Don't you see the plants and the grass and the flowers in the trees? Where do you believe these creations come from? God can definitely be proven. Who do you think created science? Jusk asking?
Science is a way of thinking and gain knoledge about the physical world, created by man.
Well, to prove something firstly we need to come to agreement what proof we consider proper. According to Vedas there are 3 kinds of proofs: (1) pratyaksha, (2) anumana and (3) shabda.
(1) Pratyaksha means a direct perception. When I see it with my eyes or when I touch. That means I admit the existence of God if I see Him or if I touch His body. But acually all I see and all I touch is His body, why not? So I constantly see Him, but I don't agree that this is His body.
(2) Anumana means a logical argument. I see that every beautiful and useful thing has been created by some person. I've never seen any smoothly functioning system was operating so without an operator who is person. It's absolutely clear to every sane person that this material world is smoothly functioning system, so there must be an operator. It's a logical proof.
(3) Shabda means "sound" proof. If you wanna know who is your father, what is the easiest and the most accurate way to get this knowledge? Can you understand it using the (1) way ("pratyaksha")? Can you understand this is your father just by looking at a man? Is it possible? No.
Or you can try to find your father using logic, the (2) way? Well, in this case you must check millions. And nevertheless you can be wrong. You still can make a mistake. So these two methods are not proper.
But you can ask your mother. And she will tell you who your father is. She knows him like no other, right? And this way of getting knowledge is called "shabda" or listening from authoritative source. When we want to know who's our father, our mother becomes the authoritative source.
These are 3 kinds of proof which we can use while proving. What kind of proof you're ready to accept?
--1-- Because there are many Gods? How are you sure is only one? Which one are you touching? Or should i say..where are you touching? The very words you use apply to many Gods. You merely say you tough air thus god. that is simply unfounded.
-2- Oh really, so you see design in a god that a worm exists with a sole purpose to feed on your eye ball? You see design in cancer? How about design in a universe where no human life can exist? How about design in hurricanes, earthquakes..or even..earth...where 75% is water. I can throw paint on the wall and call it design as well. calling it doesn't make it so. so look again.
--3--this is nonsense
What is the authority is lying?
Well, firstly let us define what is "God", what do we mean by that word. My definition of the word "God" is taken from the Vedas.
janmādy asya yataḥ: the Supreme Person (God) is that one from whom everything has emanated.
This very word "everything" in this definition means there's no other God.
If you can prove that such person cannot exist, please do it. Otherwise, let's accept such definition of God and continue our research.
Yeah, I see it indeed. I see the purpose of sufferings and I see the great design in them and His love also. Bitter treatment is meant to cure you, but still it has bitter taste. So you're asking me what design in this bitter taste? Why is it bitter, not sweet? Because your understanding of love is wrong. You consider sweet things as love. And this "sweet" things is what pleasing your body. So your logic is if you love me, you must satisfy my senses, you must make my life comfortable. And if you don't do this then you have no love for me. This is wrong understanding.
For the sake of real happiness we sometimes have to experience pain and discomfort. And that one who's leading us to the real happiness although meanwhile is causing pain, he loves us. That's love. Love is not material comfort. So the reason for cancer and other sufferings which we experience here is actually love. But due to our misunderstanding of what is real happiness and what is real love, we blame God and dare to claim there's no sane design in what's going on.
Why you're saying it is nonsense? How have you known who's your father? What's your personal experience? Or when you're reading a book where an author claims that there are electrons and protons, you're just believing his words consider him as authority, isn't it? This is kind of faith, nothing more. And you're getting knowledge by listening. Not by direct perception or by speculation. So where's nonsense here?
Things have not necessarily emanated:
Atemporal Unvierse
Well, it's obviously wrong conclusion. Let's take an apple. Has an apple always existed? Obviously not. But it's existing now. So your conclusion is wrong.
The lost book of enoch answers many questions like this. The book of enoch is cross referenced many times in the bible but it was denounced. Enoch was noah's great grandfather. his book is like the rossetta stone to the bible but the powers that be do not want you to know it exists. It explains in detail the 200 fallen angels and how they made a pact to come to earth and mate with humans. It answers what a demon is and gives more detail about hell. It explains why the prophecies of 'revelations' have to come to pass.
Basically it explains how aliens got on the planet and genetically interfered with the human bloodline and how this upset a cosmic balance because god had not made a spirit vessel for the human/angel hybrid. God says this becomes the downfall of man and requires a future solution , so man will have to suffer till its time for the solution and the cleansing of the planet and removal of the nephilim demons.
Agreed.
The whole hell thing, from a christian point of view it's really in place as part of the whole tapestry of the old testament isnt it? At least from my younger years upbringing thats the impressionI mostly took away.
In later years as I turned from the religious upbringing I had I thought and this obviously is only my opinion that the whole hell and damnation stuff was blatantly there to have a hold over the "wicked" ir unbelievers. Like a threat really.
Fear is the fuel of faith. There are only two ways to convince someone of something: by reason, or fear. And religion needs fear.
"Faith is what you need to believe in what you know is not true"
What is hell but a threat, and what is heaven but a bribe!
Most people use threats and bribes on their own children until they are mature enough to do things for the right reasons. It is no different than how God treats humans. That doesn't mean that the threats and bribes are not real.
I have three objections to your original post that undermine the very foundations of it.
First: I object to the premise of your question. If God had made people destined for Hell then Hell itself would have been made for them. Jesus teaches us that Hell was not made for man at all, but rather for other creations that had rebelled.
This is very consistent with what the Bible says about God.
Second: The Schrodinger's Cat Experiment, is merely a thought experiment, not something done in a lab. So it cannot be used to justify contradictions in your thinking as allowable paradoxes.
Third: A paradox is a logical fallacy.
I know that you had other points to make, but since they were built upon these planks or presuppositions and errors, they fail with them. These types of confusion are common among people that read massive amounts of time on "theology" books and articles and substantially less time on the Bible. Stop reading the former and indulge in the latter. You won't need to depend on logical fallacies.
God Bless
Thanks for your comment ... @wlliambanks also pointed out it was thought experiment. I agree with you both. I do however take all points made in the comments to heart and read and study this in detail, from where I make up my opinion. I love studying the bible, much more than theology books. I have answered my own question many years ago with God can know and not know at the same time in my own mind. Without referring to Schrodinger's Cat Experiment. I just made sense to me . Thank you for your comment. Following you now by the way :)
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/
There is no absolute truth when it depends on personal faith. Truth, to be absolute and objective, needs to be based only on objective premisses, ie, reason and science.
Objective Morality
interesting post @jacor
Nice ending writing @jacor
This is great. I love this subject. You touched on it well! Thanks for sharing. Especially the Schroedinger's Cat stuff. Can't go wrong with that.
Being able to see something in no way makes the observer responsible for the behavior. Just because God sees that people will make bad choices does not mean He created thwm to go to Hell.
And anyway, I don't think hell is a forever sort of place. People go there when they choose to turn tgeir backs on God, who wants to heal them.
I talk more about this in my post,
I also like what @williambanks says about the nature of hell, here.
I would suggest "the great divorce" by CS Lewis. I personally do not buy the "Dante's Inferno" picture. Hell is an interesting topic especially when you look at the hebrew root of it and there are many different interpretation ranging from universalism (where the meaning of fire means purification before being saved) all the way to eternal torment. In my next read through the bible, I'll definitely look for more understanding on this topic. I get a lot of inspiration on this topic from 1 Corinthian 15.
You don't need Dante's description. You have all the descriptions from Jesus and the apostles that made it very clear that it was real and nasty. See my list of such quotes in another comment in this very thread.
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ok, have 13 tabs open, this one been open for hrs, getting to it !!!, looks Fun ! at 1st glance ... +1 already !, i can see its worth MY time, will consume tonight !!!
workin.on.it.com
Thanks @William