Just so people know

in #drama24 days ago

I'll be self-voting some of my posts temporarily.

Frankly, I'm done taking this retaliation shit from some random whales that think they can keep anyone onto trending constantly no matter how well they perform on the platform. The tip of the iceberg was when I noticed a selfie with very little text trending and as usual barely any engagement or fucks given and I downvoted it with my account down about $6 from $36 and they decided to retaliate on 3 of my active posts. I may not have a big following outside of Hive but I've worked pretty hard and focused mainly on my presence here over the years to let someone retaliate. I ignored it last week but I'm assuming they thought I'm just some pushover noob who'll stop using the downvotes implemented in the EIP the way it was meant just because of retaliation. If this is the game they want to be playing then be my guest, I already talked it over with the author and if the whales autovoting his content constantly can't take better care of their votes and decide to retaliate like this then so be it. If anyone thinks I'm misusing my downvotes and self-votes, which I'd much rather use to curate wide with, feel free to express yourself but just know that it's temporary and not something I've been doing ever since the HF.

I'm not someone who cares too much about the post rewards, I am also affected by a lot of autovotes but they also strive me to create content that takes effort and often times if I don't have anything of substance to share there's many days or weeks I don't post at all as to not abuse them. Of course I'd much rather prefer people would manually curate but right now with the rules of the blockchain its way more profitable to autovote so it's just the way things are. The reason I'm acting this way now is out of principle. No one is guaranteed author rewards on this chain and they shouldn't be able to enforce their own rules through retaliation and brute force thus I'll be using any method necessary to make them see that if they can't accept a few downvotes as disagreement of rewards, they're maybe better off on a shitty proof of stake chain or those other useless dpos chains where only block producers earn inflation.

Anyway, all post rewards going back to curators using @reward.app on this post.

Sort:  

I think the autovoting has gone too far, even with the votes I get from it. Some people can post anything and be guaranteed a few dollars. In some cases they do not even get any comments. I do not take votes for granted and try to give my posts some value, even if it's just a fun read.

You are entitled to do as you wish with your vote and I think downvoting is definitely valid as a way to affect the reward distribution. It seems you were not removing all the rewards on the post(s) and that they would still do better than most. Maybe their supporters are upset to lose some curation rewards.

It looks like you have enough support to do well despite the downvotes and you are good enough to give away the rewards.

I do not self-vote in general and will use downvotes where I think they are justified. I have changed my manual voting policy to give less of a vote to posts that have whale votes. That slightly reduces the curation rewards for others, but I vote on comments by the post author to compensate them whilst encouraging them to comment.

On balance I think we have more good people than bad on Hive. Have a !BEER.

On balance I think we have more good people than bad on Hive.

Yeah, I'm happy about this, back on Steem I was getting retaliated with like 30m sp for months for downvoting some asshole's 5 question post from trending. If anything it seems people have a bit more common sense here and less of a language/culture barrier. Still they need to realize people downvoting, especially those with cause and without ulterior motives, should be accepted and not retaliated against, else we'll just turn into Steem again.

I have an idea for an initiative to reward feedback and encourage people to interact more at Hive. I actually created an account called @elcomentador, but I haven't started using it because I want to shape this project and find support.

In the meantime, I just sign my comments from this account this way:


This way "El Comentador "

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Maybe their supporters are upset to lose some curation rewards.

Wouldn't surprise me considering most of their votes are mainly autovotes at 4-5mins.

Having to get a vote in at five minutes mean there is little chance people are reading the posts. I want more readers and can live with less voters.

Im just a small shitposter but I follow well respected curation trails and I have been on the other end of retaliatory down-votes. Like you I dont let it impact my activity, because the platform is more important than the individual.

Dont stoop to their level by self upvoting consistently though.

Any energy coins you'd still recommend taking a look at? ;)

Specifically energy coins the only one I stay connected to long term is SolarCoin. I think their model is extremely slow burn but eventually so much SLR will be in so many hands something will organically take off.

This is the problem once users collect enough auto-votes. I see far too many high value posts for single photo with less than 100 words. I'd love to comment on them, but I'd just give them pointers on how to make a better hive post. Then you realize they don't need help, they're just abusing author rewards. I think this is a good way to use downvotes, because the downvote system makes zero sense. I could see them retaliate but you should call them out directly in a post, let them know why you're downvoting and most people would support it.

Yeah then the problem appears that they drag a discussion out endlessly, suddenly people who do support him come out of the shadows even though they almost never comment on their posts to begin with and it becomes a full time job defending your downvote and on top of that getting retaliated on.

Can't wait for delegated downvote pool and a proper decentralized guild that only focuses on downvotes.

a proper decentralized guild that only focuses on downvotes.

Wtf?
H-DR?
@anthonyadavisii

We've been downvoting since before they were free, tyvm.
I didn't cry about the rewards when I got wiped out.
Didn't make me want to take rewards from everybody else to give to me, either.
Just sayin'.

Thanks. It's been awhile so maybe he forgot or for one reason or had some criticism we had yet to hear. We'll see.

He hasn't forgotten, he's just proving his snobbery.
He only approves of sycophants, others can kiss his,...

Not my opinion, his demonstrated behavior on the chain.

Okay? Way to speak up as if I shit on your nobelprizewinning innovation. Maybe if it wasn't dead I'd remember it

Maybe if you weren't such a snob you would be in the discord and see the ongoing daily interactions of our continuing effort to build consensus around abuse fighting.

Maybe if it wasn't filled with weirdos like you I would

Lol, yes, denigrate,...it seems to be your style.

A decentralized guild would be a retaliation of the hive brand. I think the Hive brand is important and should value the fact that they are held accountable. In essence, this discussion is around accountability on hive and how the witness or some other party would support that. NOT some other rogue entity, if anything the rogue entity be sponsored by the DHF

a proper decentralized guild that only focuses on downvotes.

That sounds strangely familiar. I've been working in a new bot in the spare time. Was there something improper about our former iteration. Feel free to hit me up offline.

I thought it seized to exist after the hardfork

Nah just been taking a break getting my mind right

kk no need to get all defensive either way

No worries. Anti can be quite passionate and I like that about him. I didn't mean to offend but yeah we still kicking. ✌️

seized ceased

No charge for the favor.

damnit this is why I need to create my @witchunt app
so the mob can protect itself and downvote trash in peace without retaliation.
flagging someone because they flagged you is the dumbest shit.
that behavior coming from the top brass is downright embarrassing for the platform.

former top20 witness even :)
guess him deactivating his witness as soon as he realized he couldn't stay up there through votetrading anymore tells more about him than his use of downvotes ever could

teknow is a constant pessimistic troll I decided was not worth the time to read anymore so muted him, there's no reasoning with him.

"pessimistic troll"

Lol that's essentially saying:

"he identified errors and I don't like to read that"

Lol after I criticized your poshtoken that doesn't even give people real rewards to those working as the Twitter spam/marketing team. I told you that it would just be seen as shilling and that they deserve real rewards NOW.. NOT "if the poshtoken ever goes live."

That's when you muted me. Be honest at least and show me where you tried to reason? You even made a follow up post saying "after some have identified errors".

You can't handle HONEST CRITICISM because this place is just about brown-nosing so you and @theycallmedan can run your deadend initiatives using free labour. Who cares ay.. those poor fools take what they get. Even they (the free workers) admitted that people are muting them and asking them to stop spamming. Stellabella then had to give people retraining on how to not make their tweets look so spammy so she literally repeated what I pointed out.

Anyway this is all funny.
Call me an instigator if you want.
Call me out on lies though.. if you can.

Did I lie.... I never... Lie!

Ah, that's unfortunate.

@acidyo thinks because he "manually curates" he should be respected and admired and he has right to "police the baddies"

This shit is funny.

If I wanted to know what @acidyo thinks some random person I've never talked to probably isn't going to help me with that. In any case, since when is downvoting garbage on trending "policing the baddies"? Interesting logic there.

Because if the system put them there (blind votes by automation which is what this place became long ago) then it's avoiding the true issue and just focusing on the "boogie man" by attacking the individual account.

It's exactly what happened when @haejin was winning $400+ daily rewards by posting fast content on market analysis. He wasn't doing anything wrong. In fact he was doing EVERYTHING RIGHT and that's what bothered people. That he was winning so much by what looked to them like little effort. Yet their efforts (which they perceived to be more honourable) wasn't getting near the same rewards.

It's funny that when flaws of a collective show (be it an online community or even family units), the infighting goes up. Well it's not funny, but funny here means "human behaviour which is actually ignoring the real issue and pretending the fix is much easier."

The issue being put forth is simple: If someone downvotes simply because they got downvoted, that person is a tool. That's always going to be true no matter what kind of changes could get made to the platform.

You're talking to someone who thinks curation should be eliminated entirely, which would obviously end all this autovoting bullshit entirely, because there's no longer a financial incentive to do it. Curation is, and always has been and will be, a stupid zero-sum game that gives bots the advantage when it comes to farming ROI.

The solution is to simply get rid of curation as we know it and apply a bunch of our inflation to the bank accounts (essentially approved self-upvoting via interest rates). The bank accounts can also double as collateral for creating HBD under DeFi protocols.

All of this is kind of irrelevant. If someone sees a post they think is being overpaid they should be able to flag it without the fear of retribution. End of story. These micro-terrorist tactics of retribution flagging are unacceptable and should be punished by consensus in one form or another. I was going to create a dapp called @witchunt that does just that. We'll see.

Yeah well there you go that's forward thinking, identifying a true fix for the system. I agree with your suggestion entirely and that app would be a positive addition.

I don't agree with your exemption from retaliation though. With the current system the downvote is an option even 'just because'. The thing I find laughable with acidyo is that he thinks just because he's a manual curator he should be special. He often blabbers on about it like he is some gem of crypto. So naturally his feelings get hurt. He doesn't take criticism well.

The solution is to simply get rid of curation ...

Maybe, interesting idea.
Mine was a linear curation function so that it doesn't matter when you vote or how many other users have already voted.

Yes, this is what @theycallmedan is pushing as well; not a bad idea.
But tell me, what is the point of that?
Again, this is just the same as self upvoting.
You can literally upvote whatever you want and get a known-in-advance kickback.

The only difference between this idea and adding a lot of interest to the banks accounts is that people who want to self-vote get a say about who appears on the trending tab (should they???). It also forces people to only self-upvote 50% rather than dumping all their stake into the bank account and trying to max ROI.

Personally I like the idea of greedy people exiting the reward pool and moving all their stake to the bank accounts. More upvote power for me.

It also makes zero sense for the network to assume that frontends are curating content based on price. Curation in the form of kickbacks isn't going to make sense in ten years at all because smarter trending tabs are going to be developed that stop people from exploiting the system we have today.

But tell me, what is the point of that?

It would be a compromise ... Many stakeholders will tell you that getting no curation rewards at all anymore decreased the attractivity of holding HP too much (also don't forget that since EIP curation rewards got increased to 50 % due to their intervention).

It will be hard enough to convince them of my (and as it seems also @theycallmedan's) suggestion which is somewhat less 'radical'. At least getting some curation rewards could still motivate stakeholders to upvote content at all - and as there wasn't any advantage to upvote early, everybody would be free to upvote what they really like.

That said I personally could live well with your suggestion, and I am not against at least considering it.

Not funny ha ha, but funny strange.

lol exactly. See @edicted the antisocialist gets it! (You got it too though but this put it back to ha ha funny!)

I had an idea about combating downvotes or redesigning the whole system of DV. Essentially it needs communities to be thriving. Then if some random big wig does give a DV the community has ability to either endorse that DV as "hey man you really weren't adding quality to our group" or upvote in support. By their many upvotes against the DV it would then recover the loss and give the "strike" against the big wig that could exist later on as "your DV power is nullified because you're just a mean person for the fun of it."

As it is a big wig gets no negative consequence against an "unjustified DV" and also the ones who suffer are the little shrimp that have no ability to retaliate. @blocktrades for instance agrees his bot combating rancho/haejin upvotes DOES HURT shrimp and he at least believes a 'postit note' saying "oops sorry I took your bread, here's why" could at least inform the recipient as to why the DV took place.

Long ago when communities were announced I made a similar comment that there could be healthy competition between communitie by users supporting growth and assuring safety in numbers. That it would really drive engagement and growth if it was an integral part of the system. I don't see that here though. Some communities get treated preferably by the blind voting system. Others are essentially just a group of hopefuls/tragics counting pennies. There's many ways this could be repaired but as @edicted pointed out as long as that curation rewards IS THE DUMB SYSTEM then no one cares to change it. No one even reads shit around here really. Then if they read something that doesn't agree with them (@acidyo) they avoid it.

Hive market cap going under tho....
At what point do people actually stop and say out loud.. "ok we have a leaking ship here." Toastmaster4420 (the hope magician) thinks the outside world of crypto realising new ideas like DeFi (and a new one every year) is how Hive will grow. Like seriously...? It's like saying "more ice bergs would have steadied the Titanic."

Anyway I just got up from a nap and had a coffee so I think I'm buzzing dreaming of perfect systems. I'm muted by most here anyway so likely no one will even get a notification. Let's start our own token and platform @antisocialist. We can call it Hornet. Or Whore-net - ewards for anti social pricks! Wait... that's Hive already!

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@witjjunt Sounds like a good app to have around. Hope you are able to create it.

I barely post anymore and have completely stopped caring about post rewards, so that means

I can downvote with IMPUNITY!!!

Not that I have enough HP to make a difference. The reward system is just so broken, the little upper I got from the EIP and then the Hive creation is gone.

I don't auto vote, I wouldn't know how to. LOL

Down-voting
This is one of the reasons I don't down-vote even though I see loads I'd love to. My account is not strong enough to take the retaliatory hits like some of the big players such as yourself.

Twitter'esk Posts
I too despise these posts that are merely a meme of a Unicorn farting a rainbow or a picture with "I love this car" that seem to attract insane rewards levels. I just don't understand why people would up-vote that stuff?

Videos
A lot of these really annoy me! Personally I think it's dead easy to sit in front of a webcam, talk about how you had a pimple on your bum, upload it to 3speak or Dtube, autopost to Hive with little or no accompanying text and then sit back and watch the sock puppets voting the b'Jesus out of it.

Every post I do generally takes a minimum of an hour but to be honest in most cases it's three plus hours to create. This is one of the reasons I don't post much. I have done videos in the Dogs community but I made sure I put a good amount of explanation text with them so that I wasn't a hypocrite. As far as I'm concerned I see no problem with self voting, for some poor souls its the only way the earn anything as everyone seems to be up big accounts backsides in the hope of getting a nice return for the bum licking. 🤣


"If you don't have enough power or Crypto to upvote me; reshare me instead. Reshares are worth their weight in gold!"

Don't forget, you can upvote peoples comments too!

👌👌 Totally agree man. I see a lot of posts that are on trending with a shallow substance and does have no engagement or such. People are abusing the system in a way that they post even without quality because they know they can fish for rewards. Some also make autovotes so they can maximize their earnings. But does not apply to all because some people who receive some autovotes are worthy of it. In that way, autovote is REALLY GOOD. But Holy crap,the trending page should be posts with substance and with quality. Not with some crap posts. Fck.

Anyway, just do what's the best for you and for the majority man:) Don't stress yourself out. Keep the vibes up dude!

Lol and where is the engagement on the rest of the posts that are just blind votes and usually zero comments?

People ignore that the whole system lacks engagement. Expect these posts where community huddles up to complain about a boogie man.

There are a lot of these autovoted posts that get WAY too much of a reward for a simple copy and paste.

Totally agree with everything you say. Upvote yourself, you put in the time and effort . It's deserved.
I will go take a look at who downvoted you and make my thoughts known. I can probably guess who without looking however.
Auto curation is, and always has been the weak link on this platform. I don't begrudge any stakeholder their investment returns, but upvoting bollocks is a joke.
Hope your health is still on the up and up and fuck em, keeping doing your thing fella.
Best wishes.

Please downvote the crap posts. The trending feed has been a joke for months now. The crap make-up challenge posts need to be DV'd too.

I try to make every post I do like it is my first post, everytime. I guess people as human beings just naturally need to be reminded and disciplined to keep working, to keep the quality of their content at a high level

Sorry to hear about this and hopefully it will all sort out well, life is too short and stress is never good for health.

Have a great weekend!

I am new and while posting any post not getting much vote, self-voting my post, No idea its good or bad. But trying to vote as much i can do for others on daily basis.


Hey @acidyo, here is a little bit of BEER from @steevc for you. Enjoy it!

Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your BEER.

I honestly don't visit the trending page anymore, it's no longer as valuable. I haven't contributed much to hive like i did to steem, but i also haven't tried to tear it down. You're one of the best i know here Acid, you have the right to guard your space and voice. Just don't get too entangled in the drama, though hive is worth it.

"Engagement" is the new author reward.🤔

I did trend last week once though lol

Posted using Dapplr

I have also posted a lot of things. Some people think it's fun to just post random shit and makes one feel like an idiot. We take time to post, but there will always be idiots. Ignore them

Unmute me too you clown.
You can't even take criticism.
Your bullshit hivetoken that you give people to market this thing isn't even real.
You want to be respected here but you don't even reward people that you treat as the free marketing team.

Policing each other always happens when a platform is failing. When only few are winning. HIVE is struggling after the high of "yay community is our strength."

This community infighting is exactly what happened on steemit when @haejin was using the system exactly as it was designed to be used. But people got butthurt at how much he was winning.

It seems communities always need a MONSTER to defeat. Yet it's really a diversion. A coping mechanism. "I'm not winning because... THAT BADIE THERE.."

When the truth is, most are complaining because most don't know how to utilise the system right (regardless of morality). Those that do "selfie post + blind voters" aren't doing anything wrong. The ones that can't accept it are the ones who wrongfully believe they're the ones that should only be winning. @acidyo is one of those clowns that thinks "because I manually curate, I should have my ego stroked."

Lol.

Tbh if one isn't producing shit and not posting multiple times a day, I don't see any issue with self vote. You own the HP and your own quality content is just as worthy of an upvote as anyone else's.

Self upvoit maybe, I think.

go for it mate!!!
most of us are like you who don't autovote or write content just for the heck of it

I respect your choice to make the first move and I agree with your decision. Obviously selfies are nowhere near as valuable as a full-fledged post. Sure everyone may not agree with that, but most will I’m sure.

It is a good thing you have a large enough stake to be able to make a difference in the rewards. I hope this does not become a long term battle for you.

I also understand what it’s like to only have the following here on Hive, that is the same for me. I haven’t spent the time to build on all of the Web 2.0 platforms. This is something that matters to me so much, any attack on blog here would be taken very seriously.

I absolutely agree with you, and I personally do not care if you upvote your own posts. :)

Good for you man, I'd invite myself if it would make a difference but giving my vote is only .005 it's not much of a hit.

Totally understand where your coming from though, good luck to you

Ever since I've been on this platform there has always been a feeling that this was an arranged marriage between people that are here to invest and people that are here to create.

The investors often just look for the most efficient way to get the highest ROI, which has lead to autovoting, curation trails and in some cases upvoting lower quality content.

While I feel post quality is always subjective, I can't believe people seek retaliation just because you stated your honest opinion on how you feel about a certain piece of content.

As for the self voting, you are one of the most respected people on this platform and you are taking the time to explain it and even telling us where the funds are going to. That's just awesome. Much respect for that.

On a sidenote. Is there a technical way to reward manually curation more than autovotes? I think that would help a lot.

Posted using Dapplr

@jeanlucsr

The investors often just look for the most efficient way to get the highest ROI, which has lead to autovoting, curation trails and in some cases upvoting lower quality content.

Exactly. However, there are those of us (yes, I do...because there aren't enough hours in the day) who will autovote creators who produce consistently good posts. That said, they are creators with whom I interact on a regular basis. It's a fine line IMO.

Which brings me to:

post quality is always subjective, I can't believe people seek retaliation just because you stated your honest opinion on how you feel about a certain piece of content.

I could not agree more. I have opined more often than I care to remember, about the issue of "quality" in comments and on Discord, in the 3 years I've been on the blockchain. To use an analogy "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I have more recently begun to look at how much effort someone puts into a post or comment. That's also subjective. However, my teacher training (for creative writing, among other things), taught me that even if you don't like, or agree with, if there was real effort, rather than having been just slapped together, it's worth reward. And we had rubrics for marking accordingly....

As an aside, sort of: as my little contribution to @traciyork and @victoriabsb's power up day, I looked at in excess of 300 posts (I need my head read!). Even a quick skim through them showed me who had put in real effort and who had not: from the banner to the content as well as, of course the powering up. The quality, effort and/or lack of it are there for all and sundry to see.

My last point: these are going to be a perennial debates and wars (yes! urgh!) on the blockchain. Frankly, I don't know the solution, but I do know that they are a lot of the reason why "little" people simply follow suit or even bow out (and I know of at least two fantastic content creators who have abandoned the blockchain - largely over quality vs reward issues). You know what they say:

if you can't beat them join them

Right? And which is exacly the point @acidyo is making in this post.

True. And I do have to be fair.
Many investors over the past years have been more kind to the creators than 2-3 years ago, and many creators have started to learn how to invest as well.

I think we have grown a lot. But just thinking how these issues (not just his post, but other issues as well) start to arise exactly at the pount when we are going to run a #joinhive campaign and I want to onboard people to the platform. It is just a little bit confronting.

I guess there 2 ways we can go about this:

  1. Actively lobby to get problems solved that are issues or will become issues when Hive scales to 1 mln users.
  2. Accept the eco system as it is and built from there.

Posted using Dapplr

Many investors over the past years have been more kind to the creators than 2-3 years ago, and many creators have started to learn how to invest as well.

This is true, and that includes me. I see my content creation as my sweat equity (time is money) investment in the blockchain. This is why I was not in favour of the EIP, initially. Once instituted, I changed my mind (and actually showed the impact on my rewards in a SPUD post), and which brings me to my next point: investors are kind to creators because curation earns them more - now.

It really is a one hand washes the other situation, but few realise that. Continuing the cliched analogies, it's also the 80:20 principle and few seem to really acknowledge that we need the many to feed the few.

So, yes, I concur we do need to:

  • Actively lobby to get problems solved that are issues or will become issues when Hive scales to 1 mln users.
  • Accept the eco system as it is and built from there.

investors are kind to creators because curation earns them more - now.

Totally. I was worried at first, but the 50-50 split really had a positive impact.

I agree. And a pity the potential was never properly communicated. Would have prevented a lot of FUD. Lessons learned and now we move on. 😀

It's your stake and you can self vote if you want and as much as you want man. Upvoting and downvoting has always been by choice and if it is to mitigate the fuckery from others, then go ahead.

Good for you. Its nice to see people with principles and who generally care about the platform.

I could not agree more. There is not a point with which I don't agree. There. I've said it.

I've never really seen you involved in drama but I hope this doesn't go too far. At the end of the day, what matters is your peace of mind. So do whatever it takes to protect your space and energy.