What comes first, the large votes or the engagement?

in Hive Statistics4 years ago

I'm sure I read somewhere that the idea here was that a piece of content would steadily gain traction (votes) due to its interesting nature, and rise up through the Hot pages before making an appearance on the home/Trending page.

With the content now in the spotlight, it would potentially gain more votes and/or further engagement from those who are not curating masses of content each day, and are just looking for what should be the cream of the crop.


I could well be wrong with the above, and there are potentially some valid reasons why a post can be highly rewarded but not (yet) have a great deal of engagement. A large stakeholder with for example, 2 million HP, can currently supply a $56 upvote - enough to promote a post to the lower bounds of Trending on their own. They could really like the content, and.or wish to promote their project/app - and it is their stake sooo....

With that being said, I have a table below which was first presented after the 'EIP fork' last year. At the time, promotional services were still around and a pro EIP whale had asked for a list of posts with a decent pending payout value, but with little engagement to show for it.

The link is not formed correctly on purpose, and you will need to add a '@' before the username (a right click and open would be best). 'PPP_Comment' is Pending Payout Per Comment, and the list is ordered by Pending Payout.


The posts on this list have not been read by myself, and so I have no opinion on how interesting they are.

There are some one hit wonder accounts present, but there are also a bunch of names that pop up time and time again, and some of those appear on the post I wrote the other day regarding a rather impressive/depressing farming operation.

Taking the names on this list above and summing up the all their pending payouts (Over 100$ in total) and the comments on these posts, we have the following:


People will have their own opinions on what seems like a respectable amount of comments and so I'll not make any other comment than that farm (names in bold) has it easy eh?

Opening the query up to include all authors who have pending payouts totaling over $300, it's not hard to work out whos content is more engaging than others / who is responding to the comments they receive:

AuthorPending PayoutsPostsComments

I'm not suggesting engagement metrics should be used to order a Trending page, as that will certainly be gamed. A bit like if I produce this list too often.

It would be nice though to see a list of posts that have genuine interactions taking place near the top of the pile - new visitors could see that as more of a positive than the number next to the hexagon.




Thanks for compiling these stats @abh12345. Engagement is a complex topic, and it's a bit difficult to measure clearly with a smaller core userbase like we have on HIVE. I have a feeling that as active users increase, engagement becomes more exponential and viral in nature. That would happen with/without any direct incentives for commenting, as people just like to be where the buzz is.

One thing I've noticed is that the more concrete/ more approachable a post is, the higher the engagement tends to be. For example, when I post mostly poetry, it doesn't tend to get too much engagement, but when I write articles on concrete topics, a lot more people weigh in. Obviously, that's especially the case if the post directly poses a question to the audience or provides another clear incentive to engage, like a contest rewarding responses. Then also, people are more likely to comment on users with a higher reputation number and/or larger stake for obvious reasons.

There's been an idea bouncing around in my head recently that wouldn't be a silver bullet for the whole engagement beast but could be really cool... what about having an initiative that directly seeks out and rewards quality comments with a decently weighty curation trail?


This post also motivated me to step my commenting game back up, again... I tend to go through phases where I find it hard to have the energy to respond after working on getting content ready, or just tired of staring at the screen all day working on other things, lol. It's something that's really important to me, though, I just neglect giving it my all, sometimes...

I have a feeling that as active users increase, engagement becomes more exponential and viral in nature.

I agree, and it will likely come from new recruits keen to make others aware of their presence.

... what about having an initiative that directly seeks out and rewards quality comments with a decently weighty curation trail?

This should be happening right now, @anomadsoul kicked something off last week.

As far as your engagement, what I have noticed is that when you leave a comment, it is of substance. I think this is the best approach to the game 👍🏽


I raise this on a public discord couple of days back. On oflyhigh.


This is a public forum. So this is the comment I got.

I am not making any judgement here, but I think we have turned into just a bunch of milkers. We punish the small stakeholders as scammers, but when the stake gets higher or the association gets ideal. It becomes legitimate.

It's a tough one for sure.

My opinion is that a post with value should come with some interested commentary. This surely sets a better example to newcomers?

That narrative will fall on mostly deaf ears.

This is why I have reservations about participating in antiabuse. There had been clearly a bias in the past towards the "untouchables" and don't suspect it will change anytime soon.

We have to dilute the whales, until they control less than 'the community' they rule the roost.
That may take a while when the sleeping whales prove to be the same folks just toying with us with their current level of stake.

Lol adm account is controlled by steemcleaners aways was for farming to cover some sort of claimed costs associated with API checks from Google was initial premise for their comment farming then they just said they deserved the pay and clearly so as do all the devs here hence the site having the top paid devs in the world running it with the most sophisticated code and apps, biggest user base and highest quality of content... Or not well still in beta I suppose give it 4 more years of farming might be ready then🤣🤣🤣🤣

I see you joined in 2018 so prob aren't aware of the magnitude of reward farming done by the controller's

Sorry forgot to give link earlier but here is about oflyhigh abit adm and pfunk connection back in the early mega farming days in 2017 now is pennies compared, at least they kept solid control 🤘


The only way we get these whales up off of us is to wait out the inflation to dilute them.
It is inevitable, and when it does, hive is likely to die in one fell swoop.

When the sleeping whales wakes up, we could have problems.
Especially, if it is the very ones we are mad at now.

Who else could they be?
They certainly aren't new.

As for the best paid authors, the largest autovote recipients should set some beneficiaries on some of their posts, imo.

We get that they are the high score kings, and/or queens, but life has more than money as it's aim.
Give something back to the community that supports you, iyam.

If we could get them to start tracking the median payout and only voting posts near it, rather than giving hundreds to orcas, that would be great.

Then there are my people. Engaging and leaving their mark on my post, but my upvotes come from generous benefactors who usually don't engage. I guess you can't have it all.

And yes on the Three Speak babble. Their chat doesn't show, so it looks like all that money with none of the fun. I can see Bolom @meesterboom is hanging out here instead of posting the good stuff. Boot him and give him a pen so he can get one going.

Upped and Reposted

!tip .20

I'm chilling with my homies on the east side baby girl!!

Or something. Come on, hop in my car. It bounces up and down at traffic lights!

Ha!!!! Cool it old man. I'm like a black widow. ;)

Maybe we could fight crime together!! :OD

Are you spiderman?

I do spin strong silk. So yes, in a way I think I am!

Of course, you do. What was I thinking? Look here, old man... Give me a post! I promise not to comment! Wait... is this Japanese silk or that cheap knock off Scottish stuff?

I guess a combination of both commentary and votes, although seldom from the same accounts, means you do have it all :)

I think that's how it should be for the most part - stakeholders don't really need to engage and grow a network, the rest of us should be doing that if we are to become known and make friends.

Boomy is in 3speak? Where do I go to see him and buy him a drink?!

Thank you! :D

Haha! That was a totally random thought that came at the end of my comment. I tracked the little cricket down. Here he is, parading all over the platform, instead of entertaining us.

And yes. I do feel lucky. Don't hate me because I have it all. ;)

Only thing/excuse I could point out for some users in there that I am aware of is that their post is usually an embed to a video/stream where the engagement in the latter may not exist in the post but rather in the chat on the other platform. Same can't be said for 3speak videos though.

yeah I was going to say - that is one of the things - gamers, streamers have live engagement don't they?

Yeah, I know at least steeminator3000 and strawhat who have way more viewers at the time on twitch than some other conspiracy nuts trending on that list get on 3speak a week in. :')

That is a valid point. I wonder if it's possible to rip some of the chat log out to stick in a comment when the video stream is complete?

Could be a good idea for 3speak when they further evolve their streaming, for now streaming there doesn't even create a post, though and isn't embeddable so it's kind of discouraging when bigger platforms such as twitch can be clicked play directly from outside the post even on peakd.com.

I think some proof of engagement would really help the video content. I'm guessing people assume not much was happening . Still, they could watch later and decide for themselves.

I do like being able to watch streams/play vids without clicking the posts.

Yeah I think on twitch you need affiliate for past broadcasts to show up as vids (or do they call it vods) although not sure cause I've been an affiliate since 2017 ;)

Maybe you can tell us more about that. :PP


Yeah I'll do some testing over the road at some point. For now though, if you aren't there watching me drive, you don't see shit :)

I've missed all streams so far. :( Should pay the subscription fee so I get alerts oh wait you don't even have a subscription button, noob. xD

Damn it, you are smashing it in the comments section and what is worse - pipped by @galenkp!

Those farm accounts indeed have it easy...

and oflyhigh? How is that possible to have so many posts up in that first list with near zero engagement? $845 with a total of 22 comments is a bit of a joke :D

Pretty easy when @abit and @adm vote for ya.

Generally a lack of engagement with very consistent voting speaks of circle.

Another day in the Hive.

Probably worth mentioning @hivewatchers as taking payment in upvotes for their work. Not ideal but it is what it is.

Ideally, there should be a proposal to fund @hivewatchers, but I think the prevalent thinking here is it wouldn't get passed.

It does seem strange to be simultaneously preventing exploitation of the reward pool while dipping your hands in it.

It's the same with the good works of @jaguar.force as well. But, I guess, again, it's the perception that it wouldn't get funded. Hmm, maybe there should be a try at the proposal anyhow.

I'd like to see some proposals from both, what have they got to lose?

I'm not sure on the total pending rewards Hivewatchers remove each week, any idea if it's around the total they take in payouts?

I guess you'd have to query that based on the downvotes they dish out.

Currently, they do receive more than $2 per comment and $30 per report. They also do curate community content as well.

Somebody should get on that, 10sbd prices me out.

Part of me feel that things need to be thought out before writing an actual proposal.

So, I'm just testing the waters with @dpoll right now. Just gauging interest.

With any luck,...

We are trying, as are many more. Some total shockers on that list though - I would love a big hammer.

I understand the odd ones that get a bumped post, but when there are multiples with no engagement, it should be alarm bells.

Yep. If only we had some whales or a club of folk looking out for suspect behavior...

Aye, there are some bastards up there without a doubt.

Probably a lot of them are liquidising their earnings sharpish too :0D

They could be after the post the other day :) Before that, most were vesting, one after the other - strange ;)

Quite bizarre behaviour for them! I can almost commend them. Fuck, everyone's outside clapping for the NHS and is not stopping. Better show my face before I'm lynched!

The organisation is pretty tip-top, looks like a full-time job for someone :)

You guys still clapping up there? I heard nothing this evening after a solid show when it first started a month or two ago.

I noticed a couple of nights ago, then nothing last night, then tonight it went on for like five minutes. I popped my head out and clapped heartily nodding at my neighbours like Fuck yeah!

And then cursed them when you shut the door?

Maybe. Only for shaming me though, hehe

Lol who doesn’t like some milking and cookies on HIVE! I was actually telling someone I wonder would it change peoples voting habits if on every post you make where it shows your username theirs an icon that says you’re currently powering down or a net seller bit of a name and shaming but it would be an interesting social experiment

I agree, that works be a very interesting experiment too. Except the autos wouldn't care! :0D

I suppose you’re right, I wonder how much of the daily reward pool is distributed by auto vs manual

... an icon that says you’re currently powering down or a net seller..

Those would be interesting to see at a glance.

Lol it’s funny how behaviour changes when you add a little transparency

It would be pretty cool if you could say by your own choice see posts with the most views and most comments! I remember in my Facebook days I’d always click on a post with hella comments so I could see that juicy juicy mango drama

What could also be a cool indicator are other social shares like seeing how many times it was shared on Facebook, Twitter etc

All that social proof is bound to get people to engage more even if rewards aren’t through the roof

A feed with most engaging posts could be interesting, until people realise they just need to get some alt commentary going on.

Social shares, I like that one but again, scammers be scamming.

Wouldn’t that give us reasons to use dem downvotes doe? You spam and scam you get rekt! Maybe we could factor some sort of rep, variation of accounts, if accounts are known bots to provide better filtering! It would for sure be a rabbit hole but I think it’s worth having even if it’s just a sepeate Tab/feed or filter

Automation and algorithms are not the answer to everything.

Yeah, all these alternatives can/will be gamed. Stake, no matter how much people moan, is still the boss.

Does this list include posts burning rewards and cross-post, btw?

I think it will include posts burning rewards. Probably only Justine (and you?) in the lists doing that though?

Cross-posts will be included too, and probably tied to the person cross-posting and not the beneficiary :/

With an average amount of effort connecting to real users, non bots, on here I get about 30 cents per day.

You will find that the interaction with 1 person can equate to multiple accounts in their name.

It is tough going for sure, but commentary elsewhere is the slow grind to engagement on your own stuff.

You will find that the interaction with 1 person can equate to multiple accounts in their name.

Possibly, yes.

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

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What comes first, the large votes or the engagement?

For most of the Hive blockchain and Steem blockchain users, neither. This is the sad truth.

Thanks for cheering me up before bed! The long tail curve is a feature, and with prices down here it is hard for many to see value.

Here's an idea, what if we define trending is the number of comments on a post rather than the payout value? Or is it the number of upvotes? What more accurately reflects community support and therefore value to the community, author payout amount or engagement? I personally would say the latter.

It has been suggested, but unfortunately it will most likely be gamed. Friends/alt accounts/scripts will be used to add comments if there is a prize for doing so. We are stuck with Hive Power, for now.

The issue is that using HP just assumes that the wealthier are less greedy than the poor. Experience suggests the opposite.

I love this idea. Has it been discussed to have another tab of trending for comments? Would love to see that. Most of the posts with lotsa comments have some juicy juicy mango drama as what @chekohler described lol.

Yeah I feel it’s worth a shot, I mean what was the point of HIVE if we going to do the same things STEEM did?

Comments could be the key, to activity and engagement because we all know where mango, woman go

215 on 7 and I think it's been quieter than usual lately.

Yeah, exemplary work sir.

These things are beyond the honest creator/publisher's control. I can't remember a time where I published something hoping nobody would stop in.

I don't think people who've earned a lot, or even a small amount, should be made to feel like they've done something wrong simply because others chose to remain quiet.

I've spent years enjoying Youtube. I think I've left all of about 2 comments in that time. There are probably more people like me who remain quiet on Youtube than those who comment. The reason why it's so quiet here is because of the lack of dedicated consumers and people need to know not all of those people talk. Majority of the accounts on Youtube are not made by creators either. That's a minority.

It's unfortunate some folks on that list are clearly farming rewards and wouldn't care if people commented or not. A quiet day is never my goal.

It is quieter than in the past and engagement expectations should be lowered accordingly.

However, if you are hitting Hot and the lower Trending ranks frequently without a comment, something is amiss in my opinion.

Sure. Some foul play perhaps.

I'm noticing even those who do not hit trending consistently do not receive much engagement at times when they do well; earn more. Could this be because many focus on what they feel is "under rewarded" and when they see money beside a post they think "that's enough, not worth looking at."

I wrote a post awhile back, can't remember which one. It was shortly after the EIP went into effect. I went from being earning a couple bucks, but always high engagement, to earning more, almost over night. I noticed early on the increased visibility was not leading to more engagement in most cases. At the time of writing the post, I concluded the paid votes had tarnished the trending and hot page reputation, meaning nobody was looking there anymore. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe earning is simply a turn off now. Many assume or are conditioned into thinking there's no such thing as earning honestly. Even reading some comments here makes me think some honest folks are being lumped into a pile and success frowned upon. I might just be overthinking though.

Hmm, I'm not sure as to why posts doing well / not so well end up with similar engagement, it could be that people have lost faith in the trending pages and just aren't browsing much.

Following the EIP, there was a noticeable increase in your post valuations. Those able to do that (traf, kevinwong, etc) rarely comment, much the same as other larger accounts.

Even reading some comments here makes me think some honest folks are being lumped into a pile and success frowned upon.

I definitively did some lumping here, and have tried to respond appropriately to those wondering if it's bad they appeared on the lists. I also mentioned there would be some 'one hit wonders' showing up, not a bad thing at all.

Please continue to overthink, unless it makes your bonce hurt :)

Some curators act more like promoters, working (and getting paid with curation rewards) to place things in the spotlight. Similar to how someone would work to get a band into a venue, then take a cut of the revenue. If the promoter does well, that means the band did well, and so did the venue. Usually a promoter in this sense would use the band's previous efforts to gauge whether or not there's potential to make money, but most likely would not be at the show. That role of promoter is legit in this world. Some artists and entertainers even higher them and call them 'agents', but that role comes with a lot of other responsibilities.

I do believe some faith has been lost in the venue (trending page) and do often see people mention how they don't look at it, mainly sticking to who they follow, plus following the trail of breadcrumbs leading to others when those others make themselves known by commenting on posts they follow. I'll see quite often people mentioning how they started following others simply because of comments left here and there.

I know you're not lumping me into a pile of evil doers. You've been aware of my existence here for a long time and know I'm not looking for shortcuts. I think it would be solid marketing for the platform if success was celebrated (because that typically attracts others who want to work hard to get a taste) but unfortunately, since there is so much riffraff, I can tell you right now, the more you read what people say (not just here), the more you feel hated for doing what nearly everyone else working honestly wants to achieve.

That is why I feel it's important to expose the true riffraff so other people can do well in peace.

Wow! Ash, this is certainly not a great ad for Hive.
We struggle and battle for hours getting real quality posts out for what?
I have one today at 4.77 and just look at what's going on here.

Totally depressing mate.

I nudged you up a bit, and hope some of the farmers in the list above are nudged down.

Have a good one :)

Thank you kindly Ash.
You are a kind man.
Thank you also for shining a light upon the darkness here.

Take care my friend!

My posts could very well end up looking like that, high payouts with little engagement, mainly because most of them are 'Going live' announcements for my livestream.

I don't think those will reach the pending payout totals here but I understand your point.

Man I’m so glad that I didn’t pop out in this article. I’m the EXPERT at attracting high value upvotes AND 0 comments at the same time. In fact I think I’m one of the best out there at this exact peculiar task! But on Hive my pay-outs are not as big to compete with the young generation I guess...but you just wait and see :D!


I was wondering if you could share this knowledge? Just messing, it’s nice to feel wanted!

I'm trying to support the little guys. I'm saving up my stuff to get hive power.

Good man. Save some liquid too in case further exchange magic happens.

And I thought all along that "auto" were supposed to be the solution for everything...

Some on those list should ideally be funded by dao, others should be chased off the platform or downvoted.

Comments are one measurement.
Ive been thinking of comments + CSI + upvotes.

If we could factor an improved versionof CSI of post upvoters into something (csi is that measure from steemworld/beeme), it would be great.

Examine and evaluate voting activities of accounts upvoting combined with post engagement would get a very accurate sense.

Some on those list should ideally be funded by dao, others should be chased off the platform or downvoted.

Yep I have those thoughts too, although would prefer to see actions changed.

It would be nice to come up with some metrics but people are good at adapting and playing the game.

The numbers say it all I guess Asher. But alas, like always effort and quality isn't always rewarded. I have to say, I'm pleased to see 14 posts and 396 comments next to my name.

You're smashing the comments too bro! Nice.

It's far better to see that commentary against what is a nice take against the average user. Nice job and cheers 👍🏽

You're welcome mate, you're smashing it. I think I might lag behind this week, but I've had a good week of chatting, having fun and posting and that's the important thing.

Glad to hear it. Without the fun, why bother at all 😁

Yep, that's exactly what I think.

So, 2pm there almost...That has to be the weekend by now right? Lol.

Almost 10:30pm here, just finished a movie...It's raining cats and dogs. Almost bed time, I'm tired and have a big day tomorrow. Have a good rest of Friday and a weekend ahead. Will be interested to see the EL results this week, to see who smashed me!

Correct, and my friends in the Whatsapp group are already drinking, since 2 hours ago!

I have a workout planned for 5 and so that will keep me on the straight and narrow.

Have a good rest and enjoy this big weekend, where you will finish no lower than 3rd in the EL!

No lower than third huh? A prediction? Lol.

Enjoy your workout.

The problem is the auto votes, a lot of people have it and thus some of the posts get too many rewards but there are very few readers as such.

I think these posts cannot support their valuations.

Yeah I saw a post from acidyo showing views on his posts from peakd stats and checked the one he showed with 150 views had $60 in rewards!! what's that 10,000(ten thousand) times what youtube gives 🤣🤣

Thats is still ok, there might be posts with 10 views and $10, just because of auto votes or self vote.

How is it still OK?
The reward and ranking system based on the vote amount was to rank posts so the 'cream' I.e high quality content would go to the top of hash tags so that it would encourage traffic to the site and new content creators and repeat

The current practice as it always has drives users who join the platform away after a short time and looks like a joke vs any other "content" site if you could say that.

Unless you think all those posts on trending by devs and witnesses have visitors thinking how talented they are and consider investing to support? Imo doubhtful
Take the user retention 1.3 mill accounts, 12k that make transactions daily being overly fair say all are unique is 6%, after 4 years don't see how those are good figures not discounting alt accounts bots and autos

That's absolutely correct, the problem is again we don't have people coming from outside that much which we would like to have. User retention is one of the problem, what do you think can be improved for user retention, is it evenly distribute the rewards which I don't think so can happen.

Yes I know Fundementaly Flawed as a content site is used as a money farm by whales always has been for a very short while flagging was heavy in 2017 prob when the most users joined but efforts were given up due to the massive increase in vote amounts and the cost to vote now flags are free and the power of farmers is absolute, no democracy exists here since old bot owners and farmers got there stake for free not to mention the preminers who got millions at little cost and used to farm after.
After 4 years its obvious they will never change which in turn will gurantee little users will never stay once they experience enough of it to learn the face value

That's absolutely true, since the bot owners got their stake and they can wish to upvote any one they wants.

A "million" users and this small amount are taking 50k

Total Pending rewards = 387,959 HIVE $143, 314USD

So this small group are taking 60% of rewards, that's "proof of brain" right there 🤣🤣

Ps the @ is missing from your links so they can't be followed directly


Yep a fair slice.

I left a note about the missing @'s 😊

Is this a good thing that I saw my name in here? I just turned dolphin after 2 years and 8 months of blogging. I didn't buy any stake. Now I feel guilty for having less engagement in my post.

Don't worry! Your post was visited by a whale who must have liked what they saw.

I hope you are visited by more people as your writing is worth more eyes :)

Thank you! That sounds reassuring. I'll try to experiment on ways on how to increase engagement in my posts. But I bet it's difficult knowing that comments are not incentivized and some would just love to pop some upvotes and then find another post to curate without leaving any comments.

At the end of my post, I always encourage people to comment in my posts as I appreciate them as much as I appreciate upvotes and reblogs.

Thanks for the follow, by the way. Did the same. Not that you needed it because you seemed to be very well engaged here. I always see your posts on trending or reblogged by the someone I followed. I guess I should learn a thing or two here. See you around!

Thank you for the kind comments :)

I didn't check if you are doing this already but engaging with fellow travelers should mean more visitors to your work in time. Congrats on making it to Dolphin level!

Just started. I am now part of pinmapple and haveyoubeenhere first app tester. Engagement is usually on discord.

I'm grateful for being a low profile account. High profile accounts with huge payouts and lots of engagements tend to attract scammers and hackers. It's a double-edge sword. C'est la vie!

I suppose that could be an advantage :)

This is one of the problems steemit had. People suffer to create great post but end up without any recognition. Sometimes the problem might be on the part of the user but the truth remains that if you don't have Steem power you aren't going anywhere.

Stake matters for sure, but we knew this from the start.