The Proposal System is fundamentally broken!

in #hive3 months ago (edited)

Prove me wrong. But first, let me reiterate. The title was just a little bit clickbaity, sorry about that. The DAO itself is a great tool and it works as intended but how we distribute funds is utterly retarded. Let me demonstrate. We are currently paying 30k USD for glorified secretary work someone would have done for a thousand bucks but we can't seem to get the necessary votes to distribute 4kish USD for an app that would cost millions to develop in the real world.

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What the actual fuck is going on here?

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Don't get me wrong though. I have nothing personally against @justineh.

She is a cool crypto chick who has been with us for a long time and has done a lot of work in the background to help get this place to where it is today.

The only two things I mind about her proposal are its outrageously high price-tag justified by the value of exchange listings (most of which we would get for free anyway) and how she single-handedly took all the creds for something she did not do on her own. As @lordbutterfly pointed out, thousands of us talking and screaming about Hive and the Steem hostile takeover on Twitter added fuel to the fire and greatly aided in assuring those listings take place as exchanges noticed how large and die-hard our community is, there is no denying that. Anyone who tries to deny this is either delusional or doesn't understand how big of an influence Twitter has in the crypto sphere.

I'm not going to go around saying that she should give out some of the money to everyone that posted about Hive on Twitter but I wonder if she is going to split some of that cash with the devs she mentioned helped her out. No mentions were made about this in her post so I'll conclude that she won't, unless she jumps in to say otherwise.

Anyway, after just a week after her initial post, Justine's proposal got over the funding threshold and started receiving daily payouts. The DAO is currently bleeding 500$ a day for this proposal for the next 58 days while @dapplr's proposal has been out in the wild for close to a month yet we are still 9 million HP in votes shy of getting it over the funding limit.

This is deeply disturbing.

I wonder....

...how do you justify funding something to the tune of 30k for 1000 USD worth of work while simultaneously not funding something else with 4kish USD worth millions of dollars?

Do you really think Justine's work deserves such a fat paycheck?

This is 4 years worth of average salary in my country. We could have easily gotten someone to do her work for 30 times less than what she is receiving.

Are you seriously telling me that no one else would have done it for free or at least much less? I beg to differ.

Are you blind to the value a top-notch mobile interface of the Hive blockchain would bring to this place?

Should we maybe find a real-world company to bill us a few million for the same exact product? Maybe then you will want to vote for the proposal, ye?

Is the amount bothering you?

Could it be that @dapplr is asking way too little making you suspicious?

Maybe they should as for 100k then.

I'd surely vote for them because they definitely deserve it. Hundreds of hours of front and back end development are worth much more than the measly amount they are currently asking for yet we still can't vote their proposal over the threshold.

If we don't do something about this, we will never attract any devs from outside of our tiny bubble which was one of the main purposes of implementing the DAO and sacrificing a portion of author rewards in the first place. If we keep funding community members with such outrageous amounts for basic work as communicating with exchange reps the crypto sphere and CT especially will see our DAO as a fucking value-draining joke. They will think of it as just another way to siphon value out of the chain while providing fairly little in return. If we continue in such a manner, expect CT to light this place on fire as soon as they pick up on it, which thankfully they still haven't.

Enough about the problems, let's talk solutions.

I see two issues at play.

Whales and the rest of the community.

Whales have too much power which is evidently presented in the fact that if they joined forces, just a few of them can pretty much vote any proposal in if they wanted to and a concerningly large percentage of the community is still dormant with the latter mostly not even aware of the DAO's existence let alone actually voting for proposals. Moving forward whales will only become more powerful as they increase their stake by curating/investing so that part of the problem is only going to intensify as we progress into the future. This is something we can't do much about other than increasing our personal stake. Users with higher stake have more influence which they fully deserve. What we can work on is educating the rest of the community about the DAO and urging them to vote on noteworthy proposals such as dapplr's.

I'm not sure how much HP not voting for any proposal there currently is out there, but I would bet my last dollar that it's at least 10 mil, probably much more than that and possibly enough to get over the funding threshold of circa 22 mil.

If we could get a large portion of that unused HP to actually vote for proposals, this would greatly alleviate the problems at play.

Educate, educate, educate and educate.

This is the first step we should take. Get as many people voting as possible.

The only other solution I have in mind is to increase our own stake to acquire greater influence.

If a thousand people got a thousand extra $hive that would be a million more tokens in the hands of the people. If we manage to do this a dozen times over the course of a year or two, the community might actually be able to outweigh the whales, who knows.

Awareness and token distribution are key.

If we consistently work on this, in a few year's time we might even get a fair fund allocation going on.

Until then, overvalued proposals and those which don't even deserve the funding in the first place will have a chance of receiving it.

Your thoughts?

I'd love to hear your solutions if you have any.

We are all in this together and only by having an open discussion can we achieve something.

Heck, instead of simply replying in the form of a comment you can even write a full post about it to let your followers know about the problems our DAO is facing.

Link them here and I'll review/curate them.

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In your face BITCH. The system is working EXACTLY as it should. Just because it doesn't go the way of you and your little butterfly bitch doesn't mean it's "broken".

If you're that fucking butthurt, buy more stake, increase your say. Until then, shut the fuck up and let those who actually understand how things work do what needs to be done.

How does it feel knowing your opinion doesn't matter?

Please sir no 😂

You are ridiculous and flexing your ego here is meaningless but so is engaging with a troll yet I'm still participating for some odd reason. Maybe it's because you're a "G" here, rollin' with that huge stake deserving mad respect around the block because you got the dough?

Go sell that speech to someone else, because I'm not buying.

Doesn't matter what you buy, project will get funded or not regardless of your whining or actions.

You are not getting it, are you?

The point was never about if she will get funded or not but rather about a collective failure to vote in another proposal which you are partaking in. Also about the fact that, if we wanted to, we could have gotten the same amount of work done for a lot less. Even though the DAO is currently overflowing with funds it doesn't mean that we shouldn't use it in a more efficient, self-sustaining way.

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Now go use that stake of yours for something collectively useful and vote for that other proposal or elaborate on why you won't.

It arguably brings a lot of value to the table which you would ultimately heftily benefit from. So is the case with Justine's proposal which is partially responsible for $hive's current valuation. Your stake appreciates in the end as a direct result. Disproportionally more than mine though yet here I am trying to convince you to do something mutually beneficial and consequently getting shafted on.

Isn't it ironic?

Why vote for one while not the other when the ultimate outcome is the same?

Are you tone-deaf?

The fact that @dapplr still isn't getting funding irritates me.

I'm beyond frustrated at this point. Even more so when I see a proposal such as Justine's get voted in in a matter of days.

I fully agree on this.

As @lordbutterfly pointed out, thousands of community members talking and screaming about Hive and the Steem hostile takeover on Twitter added fuel to the fire and greatly aided in assuring those listings take place as exchanges noticed how large and die-hard our community is, there is no denying that. Anyone who tries to deny this is either delusional or doesn't understand how big of an influence Twitter has in the crypto sphere.

This.

The least we can do is speak for those proposals we personally find the worthiest.

Moving forward whales will only become more powerful as they increase their stake by curating/investing so that part of the problem is only going to intensify as we progress into the future.

In late 2019, Steemit Inc was selling 200,000 STEEM per month to cover for development and infrastructure. That had the effect of lowering the price and making it easier for everyone to grow their stake by buying STEEM. Right now, the DAO is distributing about 4,500 HBD = 13,500 HIVE per day = 405,000 HIVE per month to fund development. The dollar value of that is more than three times the amount Steemit, Inc spent on a monthly basis in December 2019 if the 200,000 per month figure is accurate.

Steemit, Inc was able to ship many features in the second half of 2019. We can take a closer look at what the DHF funding has paid for when the summer is over.

Hey Mark

Sorry but I'm not sure your numbers/dates are right. I checked the transfers last week.

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https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@abh12345/development-costs-then-v-s-now

I'm totally fine with differing opinions over the DHF and the various projects funded, but estimating numbers when the facts are on chain I have to point out.

Thanks for bringing up the numbers!

I guess another question becomes how likely are those who receive funding from DHF to sell those funds vs powering up themselves. In the case of Steemit those funds were going to the marketplace to decentralize the ownership of the network. If DHF recipients are not selling but instead powering these funds up then I could see this resulting in a situation where whales begin consolidating power by draining the DHF for their own projects to have an even stronger control for future DHF / curation funds.

That's exactly the problem. Of course, those funds could be cashed out, too, in which case the DAO could be part of decentralizing the ownership of the network. But to the degree those funds are just used to line the large stakeholders' pockets, then the consolidation/centralization problem could arise again.

But then again, Hive exists because of a core group of developers. Anyone who got an airdrop got a gift from that group and the altcoin speculators who are giving the tokens monetary value. Actions speak louder than words when it comes to intentions, which is to say that we'll see about how this thing will develop. There's always Bitcoin if this thing turns out to not go anywhere. But the jury is very much out there. I think it would ultimately be in everybody's interest to get the DAO working properly.

4500 is the budget. Its currently dishing out closer to 1300 HBD a day. Thats about the same Steemit.inc spent during 2019 if it continues for 365 days.
If it was my guess you can expect a new proposal after Justines 500 hbd a day ends. It will be for one thats up to 100 HBD a day.

4500 is the budget. Its currently dishing out closer to 1300 HBD a day.

Because of the return proposal. What happens to the money that does not get distributed? Is it burned or does it go back to the DAO?

Its a return proposal, i assume its returned, doesnt get funded. :)

There is no need to make assumptions, the account that receives the funds for the return proposal is the steem dao.

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This is bullshit.

1300$ a day for 365 days is $474,500.

Steemit inc Spent $2,000,000+ in 242 days from end of 2018 to August 2019, and that's only looking at the accounts we know about.

Enjoy offloading your Hive into the rise generated by those exchange listings? Thought so.

This is why i find these discussions degenerate. As much as someone might want to try and introduce reason into these discussions, they cant, because you will always have fans (thats what you are, simply a fan) twist stats in favor of their point of admiration.

  1. I said 2019 as an arbitrary year for a estimate i didnt even check exactly, simply knew it was in the ballpark. You jumped on it and changed the dates to what fits you best.
  2. The average price based on end of month dump assuming the 200k Steem number by Mark is true is around 25 cents which gets you a bit more then 600k USD a year. 1300 HBD a day is close to 500k USD a year. Thats very fucking close.
  3. We got hivemind, communities etc. If HIVE delivers just SMTs (that have been developed to a high degree already) this year under 600k ill be happy.
    I sincerely doubt it though.

You should be ashamed of yourself at this point after the comments you left.
To lower yourself so much as to fight anothers fight and lie, twist facts so they get money for some secretary work they do not deserve.

Do you even consider yourself a man?

Look at what you have just written.

I'm calling your numbers bullshit, which they undoubtedly are, and you are suggesting I am degenerating the discussion? Where I am asking you to confirm if you are a man or not?

The average price based on end of month dump assuming the 200k Steem number by Mark is true is around 25 cents which gets you a bit more then 600k USD a year. 1300 HBD a day is close to 500k USD a year. Thats very fucking close.

Look at the price history for the day they sold, or even take the month ending if you wish. STEEM was not 25 cents for much of this time.

Again, 1300 HBD at a dollar is $474,500. Steemit inc spent a million dollars more this in the first 8 months of 2019.

Next time, do the math before you start throwing numbers around.

I did do the math and the math is correct based on presented info in front of me. Start of year of 35 to end of year at 13 cents.
I made an estimate based on information presented. Based on information presented i did some quick math.
If you want to correct anyone go correct Mark.

Thats really not the issue here though. The issue here is that you dicks are singling me out. You yourself went out and either

  1. Searched my comments or
  2. Dug through anyone mentioning Justine and the proposal system.
    (not sure whats sadder.)

Now again, after youve made your position clear 10 times, still going out and fighting the battle for someone, thats more then capable of defending them self btw, that will rip off the proposal system for 30k USD for some secretary work ( of which you will get nothing), would you say you consider yourself a man? Im curious.
Or do you think of yourself as a white knight?

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This is bullshit.

1300$ a day for 365 days is is $474,500.

Steemit inc Spent $2,000,000+ in 242 days, and that's only looking at the accounts we know about.

Enjoy offloading your Hive into the rise generated by those exchange listing? Thought so.

At least those who are getting funded by the dao are doing some work in return for the money they are receiving. Stinc, on the other hand, had very little to show for the staggering amount of coins they were dumping on us each month. Of course, I hope to see those tokens get powered up but I'm not going to hold my breath for it.

If they do decide to dump them instead of powering up though, I'll be the first line of defense with my buy orders.

If they do decide to dump them instead of powering up though, I'll be the first line of defense with my buy orders.

Except that the DAO pays out in HBD not SBD. So unless if the payouts are converted to HIVE it has no impact on the Hive supply or it's price.

Doesn't matter. I'm also a buyer of HBD if it drops sufficiently as it always gravitates towards 1$.

Pričjat ču malo dan me ne razumju smečari nit da moredu da prevedu. Stiscu me malo sa svih strana.

Nisju popularni ovi s dapplra. Najvećji je to probjem. Proposal system namišten da samo glavne lole moredu da se naplajte.
Ja sam glavni tajnik jedne od najvećjih udruga u HRV s 1000 OPGova. HKP. U konstant kontakt s minastricjom Vuckovic i stotinam drugih i mogju potvrdit da oovjo sta Justina radila je pičkin dim. Usto curja nema kvalifikacja nikakovih.
Ja bi to za 500 evra misecno napravia sa završenom ekonomjom i sa visje iskustva od nje. Al ona je bila jedna koja je smjela to. Kojoj je dopustjeno bilo.

The biggest issue is the exact example of Dapplr. I just dont know those guys ( i do vote and support their project), i havent heard them being a part of any drama or be involved with any whales publicly. I can judge for myself that it has value what they are doing but i dont know if theyre friends with Blocktrades, Dan, the witnesses.
Thats how we unfortunately make the calls. We need to rework the system.
CVs should matter. Prior experience should matter. Ideas should matter. Being friends with someone should not matter. Being popular should not matter.

Mudro zboris prijatelju.

Aha, znaci tebe zovem kad otvorim OPG da mi poguras poticaje 😂

Nazalost cak i ove skrabotine se daju djelomicno prevest pa se necu ni trudit. Kad je google prevoditelj postao toliko dobar?

Slazem se s svome sto si rekao i zalosno je sto je tako. Neznam jel uopce u nasoj moci da utjecemo na to ili se mozemo jednostavno pomiriti sa cinjenicom da ce ovako bit dok se ne izmuze zadnji novcic iz fonda.

CVs should matter. Prior experience should matter. Ideas should matter. Being friends with someone should not matter. Being popular should not matter.

Couldn't agree with you more on this but how do we put it into action when the voting itself is stake-based?

google je imao manje muke od mene :D

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Neka. Znaci da je upalilo. haha

Stiscu me malo sa svih strana

I thought that censorship is only present on steemit.

Being badmouthed around the chain by the "cool kids" and hit by downvotes for speaking my mind is not censorship.
No one can stop me from saying what ever the hell i want to say. Thats the beauty of HIVE.
That is not the case on Steemit in any way.

Years ago i wrote on facebook, on youtube, quora... I did it for free. Ill do it for free here as well if i have to.

Lol, 500 hbd per day, seems unreal. The problem is that whales are the one who get to decide, we are trivial at this point. Few whales vote and ta-da

Yep and until everyone manages to pony up a couple thousand dollars to buy up some hive and power it up to vote, things are going to be the same. It's either this or we wake the fuck up the ones who aren't even aware that this proposal system even exists.

And then they'll bitch around how come we haven't reached the audience. Lol

I voted the @dapplr proposal, although my stake is minnow size, and the best I can do is to write a dedicated post about it and let as many folks know about it. It's the community's decision after all to vote for proposal. I support and would encourage others to do so with @dapplr because Hive really needs a great mobile. All social media platforms have good mobile apps and to get mainstream we definitely need at least one as well. Hope it's going to be approved. It deserves all of their asked funds and even more.

Small contributions by many users quickly add up to a very large, collective contribution. Thanks for doing your part!

I like the app. Why wouldn't I vote for it :)

I would suggest we need caps for the amount of Hive Power that each user gears towards the proposal system. One Account and one vote doesn't work because of the exploitation of account creation and sock puppets, but a combination of capped Hive Power to give smaller accounts a bigger say would help.

Isn't this idea similar to forbidding selfvotes? If you can't do it with one account, you can do it with another one or multiple ones.

Moreover, how would you define the cap threshold? Is the cap of HP towards one proposal?

Would splitting the total HP usable for proposal voting be better utilized if it was split amongst all voted proposals in some ratio?

Could using logarithmic vote scale be a better way of dealing with similar issues?

Sorry for the unanswered questions. However, I feel I see people reacting similarly but didn't see any reasonable solution backed by more than opinions.

One account one vote would actually makes some sense as it would prevent whales from voting in multiple proposals at a time, at least not with their entire stake. Sock puppets wouldn't help much in this case either as their only benefit would be the ability of voting for multiple proposals but again, not with their entire stake but rather only a fraction of it.

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I think the issue is they hate funding anything that isn't planning to be immediately open-sourced and fully owned by hive. It is why they pushed out steemchiller who was also belived by the community.
Also, please consider justineh is the only currently funded proposal not created by a top 20 witness. So at least her proposal has that going for it.

They openly promised that the project is going to be open-sourced very soon. I see no reason why we shouldn't take their word for it. It's only 4k USD anyway... Even if they screw us over and don't open-source it (which I highly doubt they would do) we wouldn't lose much.

I don't see that as a positive note. I'd rather have witnesses doing some dev work which 99% of us half-wits can't do instead of Justine receiving an outrageous amount of money for something a lot of users are capable of doing and also something we would:

A) be able to get someone to do for FREE
B) be able to get someone to do for a thousand bucks

don't see that as a positive note. I'd rather have witnesses doing some dev work which 99% of us half-wits can't do instead of Justine receiving an outrageous amount of money for something a lot of users are capable of doing and also something we would:

A) be able to get someone to do for FREE
B) be able to get someone to do for a thousand bucks

If that’s the case, why didn’t anyone else do it? Why didn’t anyone else step up? Why didn’t anyone else get the job done?

It’s comical to see all this discussion about all the people who would have done it for free.. when no one actually stepped up to do the work. Rather just took all benefits of those trying to build something and then complain after the fact.

If it’s so easy, weird no one else got that shit done. 🤷‍♀️

It's comical that you think it's comical.

Have you made a public announcement offering the gig?

Why would it be my responsibility to make a public announcement for the gig? This is a decentralized community. I had no announcement sent to me or babied in anyway - I saw a need and filled it. It’s what is needed to get shit done.. not sit around and bitch until someone gives you instructions and begs you to do something.

So I’ll go back to my original comment.. if it was such a needed thing and so many people would have done it for free, why didn’t they?

No need for using Bernie styled rhetoric, we can continue this conversation in a civilized manner if you can refrain from foul play.

Shall we?

Has anyone else made a public statement offering the gig or asking for volunteers to step up and do the work for free?

That's the only thing I want to know.

You can't keep asking why has no one offered to do the job - so you had to step in because there was no one else willing to do it - if we were completely unaware of the fact that there even was a need for it because no one put the information out there in the open, for everyone to see and possibly even participate.

🤔

If I was using bernie style rhetoric I’d tell you to fuck yourself, “get shit done” is not “foul play”.. good deflecting attempt though.

As I said.. who is supposed to make these announcements calling for help in a decentralized community? Are you saying no one would have known that getting HIVE listed on exchanges was important unless someone told them?

I didn’t get an announcement, I saw a need and stepped in. Anyone can do the same.. no I’m not going to help them to do so.. I’m too busy actually getting shit done.

There were many posts that went out in the beginning not only asking for help but stating that the community would need to step up. 2mths later apparently you are here to say that wasn’t enough, not sure how to help you there.

Since evidently you can't contain yourself to write up a simple comment without resorting to childish and abusive rhetoric, this is where the "discussion" ends. Both because of your toxic rhetoric and the fact that trying to debate you is like attempting to drain water from a sunken boat which is still at the bottom of the sea.

It just doesn't make sense.

Sisyphus had a much easier job than I do with this "conversation".

There is absolutely no point in engaging in any further discussion with you so I'll just have to add you to my naughty list.

Find someone else to throw your hissy fits at. I've endured enough tempered tantrums from 20+ yo children on this chain to go through another with you.

Bye 👋

I think part of the problem is what always happens under capitalism, crony capitalism. Even with more people voting, they are likely to vote on the same things the big dogs are voting on because they are trying to gain favor with them to attract support for their posts.

That said, more participation is always a good thing. I just don't think it solves this problem. So long as this system uses HP as a determinant for how many "votes" a person gets on any issue, we will not have the fairness intended with the "one person one vote" idea those of us living in democracies have been indoctrinated with. This is not a democracy so much as a capitalist system, because how much capital you have determines how much influence you have.

I haven't thought about it that way but you are 100% right. I can imagine there are many people with such a mentality here. One person one vote sounds like a good starting point. This is definitely something to consider.

Stake-based voting is an absolutely must unless you want KYC. There is no question about it. Without KYC implemented at chain level, there is little to stop those with the money from creating hundreds of thousands or millions of accounts to vote under one-vote-per-one-account.

And more participation at this stage is exactly what solves the problem. Coordinating everyone's witness votes was exactly what was crucial in wresting control back from Justin Sun on Steem. If the rest of the community just passively waits for the whales to get things done what we get is more consolidation. At this time, the mathematical reality is that middle-tier users collectively are capable of introducing enough competition over access to a top 20 witness position to keep things from going completely stale.

We have listened to years of screaming how Steemit, Inc was holding us back. I'm still withholding judgement as to how this thing will work but I'm taking the possibility into account that things won't work any better than when Steemit, Inc was responsible for core development. No amount of screaming obscenities or flagging will do any good if critical stuff does not get shipped by the DAO. Interesting times.

Without KYC implemented at chain level, there is little to stop those with the money from creating hundreds of thousands or millions of accounts to vote under one-vote-per-one-account.

At least their HP will be split among hundreds of accounts and no single whale will be able to vote for multiple proposals with full power.

After seeing what Stinc did for three years - nothing of significance other than mira and communities - it will be very hard to underperform based on how low the bar has been set.

At least their HP will be split among hundreds of accounts and no single whale will be able to vote for multiple proposals with full power.

Why would that be? It makes no difference whatsoever from how many accounts the voting power comes from. Voting with multiple accounts is easily automated using bots.

Besides, no hard fork will take place without the consent of the largest stakeholders here, so it would be a moot point anyway.

After seeing what Stinc did for three years - nothing of significance other than mira and communities - it will be very hard to underperform based on how low the bar has been set.

You think 22 hard forks is nothing of significance? Ned was a bad business manager. Financially, Steemit Inc was managed poorly. They didn't cash out during good times, which put them in a terrible position in late 2018. Eli Powell seemed to be competent at cost cutting and keeping the company afloat. I think the jury is still out there when it comes how well the DAO is capable of funding development.

Because one account one vote

nothing of significance other than mira and communities

I'm sorry but I'm not following you. Could you clarify what you mean?

if a whale has 100mil hp, how is he going to vote with the entire 100 mil for multiple proposals under one account one vote?

if he was to equally vote for two proposals each would be voted for 50mil not 100

I see what you mean. There is no voting power for proposals or witnesses that can decay or be depleted.

Would the largest stakeholders who control the witness spots agree to a hard fork to implement one account one vote.

dapplr looks like is doing an interesting thing. no idea who people are, the design of it looks good, not really sure how far they got. but as you said, for that amount, it is most probably worth a risk.

other really big example is peakd. for me, it is mindbogglingly that they are not funded. most used frontend for hive, constantly developing, never took anything from creators for their funding...

Judging by the snippets they are releasing, I would say quite far. Can't wait for the release though. Hopefully they decide to release it even if they don't receive funding straight away, as it would be such a shame not to see it come to light.

If I'm not mistaken, peakd was over the funding threshold for some time but I guess someone decided to pull their vote so they fell under it once again.

Things would have been way easier if devs implemented a downvote button next to "support" button. That way those who disagree with specific proposals could downvote it. I mean downvote buttons are everywhere so why not there too?

Right now one can only support a proposal...or ignore it. Of course one can also vote the return proposal so that the funding limit goes higher but it's not the same thing.

I wonder why that is the case. There must be some reasoning behind it. One which I'm not able to come up with.

I have no idea. Don't get me wrong here, I ain't suggesting that she doesn't deserve all that money...nor that she does.

Generally speaking there's no way for one to express their disagreement on proposals. Voting the return proposal higher would affect all proposals that receive funding atm.

I get where you are coming from but do you really think it's worth 30k though?

I think there's a simple explanation for that: in a (stake-based) system by representation disapproval has no value. Only approval does. It doesn't matter if you disagree, as long as sufficient approve...

Harsh (is it?) but true. If you disagree, your task is to alter the minds of those agreeing.

Another argument would be "brigading", an issue which we have historically seen through all voting based communities online. Brigading of witnesses and proposals would make the environment only more toxic here.

Well, there is currently no way to show disapproval so you are right. Being able to downvote proposals would fix this. Changing the minds of those who agree is Sisyphus' work.

Very interesting!!!

@lyubo19 аха ти си го видял още преди 2 месеца ;)

Ясно ;)

Да, брат..

@lyubo19 тагвай ме на такива неща искам да ги знам ;)

Аппа е доста обещаващ жалко че трудно събират пярички :(



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I think the main issue is people are penny-picking like it was their own money on stake here. I think the funding on hive-dao should be spread to as many even remotely good project as possible. What comes to those whales is that they must be a bit on cross-fire as some people complain about spending too much whilest others tell that this instead of this should get funded.
If we could get the smt's by giving someone 300,000HBD I think it would just be worth it since that HBD on the dao is just a slice of the reward pool ment for developing.

30k vs 4k - secretary vs dev work - do the math

What I mean is that we should not be relating work hour wage paid by hive dao to that of real world. We are supposed to live in abundance. And what I now think comes to that small projects don't get funded is simply because people don't care about democracy and voting and back when steem.dao started there was a bit of a campaign for people to vote the return proposal so only about 5 projects now get funded.

As further thought we need to get the down-voting to the proposal system because getting votes to return-proposal only takes 1 campaign and fucks up all other proposals, whilest for each other proposal a campaign has to be held individually and multiple-votes have to be given.

Guess I always thought the DOA offered a sliding amount based on how fully funded it was. Nope, I guess that's not the case.

The app looks kind of cool, but I am a bit untrusting by nature. Especially for investments for a business type venture. Any funds I choose to go that way, I have no idea if I just helped incubate a new population of click-for-profit users, or a new profit whale, or what.

It would be good if votes for DOA proposals expired every so often. Same for witness votes. Too many people set and forget, so they don't care if the person getting their support does nothing.

Decaying votes is something I've been shouting about for a while now. It's crucial that we implement this both for witness voting and as you pointed out for voting on proposals.

Weird that voters do not see value in a 30 HBD proposal. Very little risk for potential high reward in my opinion

I still can't comprehend why it's not voted in yet.

Because of esteem app?

I don't think so. If that's the case though, that's downright retarded because competition is healthy and drives innovation. We should encourage competition rather than hindering it.

i dont know the @dapplr guys . all i have seen is some screen shot etc. but i have seen you around @runicar so if you say it's worth it id vote for them.

but i don't like the fact that is compared to other proposals the post should be hey guys i think you should vote for this proposal because is good.

I'm only comparing it to another proposal to show how disproportionally more valuable it is in order to drive the point home. I already did a post on " hey guys i think you should vote for this proposal because is good."

Maybe I should write another one because not too many people have wakened up from hibernation.

the proposal is doing good it already has 13 mil HP voted on. it looks like votes from @theycallmedan and @blockdrades would get it there. why not ask them both of them will you please vote for this proposal ? if not whats holding you back so we can improve on ?

I haven't DM'd them yet but if I recall correctly I did tag Dan in my tweet about it, not sure though. You are right, their votes would get the proposal over the funding limit. I'll see if I can come in contact with them.

I dont think Justineh's proposel should be funded. I dont know what she does behind the scene, but I simple dont like her xD
The peakd or dpplr is worth way more and should be funded

What makes you not like her?

Yes, both peaked and dapplr are evidently more valuable.

I have just seen her around being a cunt/bitch without any need for it :)

I am in favor of being bitchy and such if the other person deserves it, but it seems like its just her natural state.

You need to watch your fucking mouth.

What have you done for Hive? Did you land any exchanges?

I didn't think so. Shut the fuck up bitch.

I have done nothing at all! Or well, I did warn alot of people that they voted for a Sun Witness under the attack, but thats all I think :D

I still think, I am allowed to have an opinion of someone else tho :D
Regardless of how much they have done for the chain :D

Maybe if you abandon notions of decentralisation and look at Hive as an oligarchical/ feudal capitalist system, then it may not appear so broken.

This is just a case of Justineh having patronage and Dapplr not.

Anyone outside of the top 100 accounts or so just needs to know their place, which is one of near powerlessness.

I suggest spending less time paying attention to all of this, as most people are doing, it's all you can do in the absence of any meaningful decision making power.

I've been spending less and less time on here, life's better!

Anyone outside of the top 100 accounts or so just needs to know their place, which is one of near powerlessness.

This is far from the truth which is clearly exemplified by how Peakd's proposal reached 20m in votes without a single whale vote.

We have the power but we aren't using it. Quite a lot of people still don't even vote for proposals yet.

But it's not funded is it, the Peakd proposal.

All it takes is 2-3 whales cordinating around the return proposal to block anything without whale support.

And it's so much more difficult to get 100 mid level accounts to vote rather than 2-3 whales.

Distribution does seem to be getting more equal so things might change. Although this month I'm expecting a trend towards more inequality judging by the poweups I've seen.

Don't get me wrong - I am voting for a lot of proposals, I just don't have faith that convincing another 100 30K ish accounts would make any difference.

But it's not funded is it, the Peakd proposal.

Still around 2 mil shy from getting funded. If we had a community push to get the word out, I'm sure we would be able to get it over the funding threshold. If not a single whale bumps it up though.

And it's so much more difficult to get 100 mid level accounts to vote rather than 2-3 whales.

It may be hard but it's surely not impossible.

I'm not following the power ups. Who has been increasing its influence on the platform?

No it's not impossible, I guess it's just a matter of focusing on the largest accounts first!

Mainly blocktrades and Bernie have been powering up, I'm sure you'll be delighted to hear about the later especially.