What is Hive and who are Hivewatchers?
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Hive, and formerly STEEM, is a brilliant concept. Simplistically it is a way of earning from what you post on the World Wide Web, although for many Hive is different things to different people; for some, like me, it is a blogging platform wherein an essay or an article is posted that took maybe an hour or more crafting together, setting out the best format, checking the spelling and the grammar and setting the images within the piece to grab as much attention as possible. For some, it is a home for ANYTHING in which case they will upload videos songs and even play games on it. Then, a third element sees it as an offshoot, a sideshow of the main event, trading in HIve coins. For me, it's about Community.
Hive is billed as FREE the code is certainly Open Source, and you will hear plenty of folks advertise Hive as: "You're in control of your account, you can't be censored or have you account removed." however, sadly, some elements have no interest in Community or Building something; they see it purely as a means for financial gain. The problem for Hive and the Hive Community is that there is not a never-ending supply within the Rewards Pool, and so Hive Watchers took on the role of guardian of the rewards pool, or to be more factual, the name changed for a project that already existed under STEEM with the username cheetah the name changed to Hive Watcher when the vast majority of the former STEEM userbase migrated to Hive.
Is Hive Watchers like a Police force then?
"The first rule of fight club is: you do not talk about Fight Club."
--Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
You'll often see people moaning that they didn't know or nobody told them; the most unforgivable omission in my book is the fact that at the time of writing this post, Hivewatchers does not have an explanation, guidance or FAQ on their website https://hivewatchers.com which is why I wrote this but more importantly I hope to explain better why they make some of the decisions they do.
Hive Watchers are a group of individuals who have set themselves up to fight Bad Behaviour. Now we need to make things clearer here. The vast majority of people who see a warning notification from Hive watchers on their account have been reported by another member of the Hive community Using the Report Abuse form on the HW website. Those individuals who (Successfully) report transgressors are paid a small bounty reward for bringing cases to HW's attention because they probably don't have the time to trawl through every single new post to make sure it is squeaky clean in terms of the so-called rules and so, therefore, relies heavily on users being the eyes and ears for them.
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Using hivewatchers they will Downvote content they deem has fallen foul of the rules. "But I thought there weren't any rules? I signed up because I was told this was unlike Facebook or Twitter?" If you have fallen foul of HW then you have probably ended up on their Blacklist. Now you need to understand what that means; it means your username is now known by Bots which will automatically downvote EVERTHING you post and any other accounts that you own and post through too until such time that you go to the HW Discord Channel and plead your case in 'Appeals'. Be warned, it is a total Bear Pit, and there's very little politeness there. If HW allows it, you will go through a pretty tough appeals process which takes thirty days to complete. In those thirty days, you may still get downvotes from the likes of adm because HW will not remove your name from the Blacklist until the thirty days are up.
EDIT: I have been advised by guiltyparties that while adm was originally controlled by a bot that is no longer the case. It is now managed by a number of individuals who manually issue downvotes.
It is for you to decide if that's a good or a bad thing.
Downvotes from users have nothing to do with Hive Watchers!
Let's take a slight detour for the minute. The idea of Hive is you post something if people like it, they will upvote it, and by the same token, if they don't like it for whatever reason, they will downvote it. This has nothing to do with HW's downvoting, although it might be because HW has DV'd a post that someone decides to DV the post as well! If a DV really aggrieves you, you should ask the individual why they DV'd a post; maybe they misunderstood what the content was about or, sadly, they may just not like you. Don't be surprised if most folk issuing a DV will not respond. 🤷♂️
By the same token Just because you posted something, it does not entitle you to an upvote! I see so many people crying like a spoilt brat that: "Nobody has voted or commented on my post!" You want votes, start making friends.
Forget everything you thought you knew about content ownership
Hive, or more importantly HW only wants Original Content to be posted. What does that mean? It means: "Something that has never been seen on the Web before." so forget about posting your back catalogue of poetry works or some sonnets in the style of Petrarchan; if HW can find it on the web, you're going to be accused of Content Recycling "But I own it, it's mine?" yep, and that's why you can't be accused of Plagiarism. Still, you see HW doesn't like it, I suppose because it requires little to no effort to take something from your personal blog which you may have already been paid for via Patreon, Flattr or even some sort of crypto tipping plugin and then expect to earn further rewards on Hive but here's the dilemma, authors release revised editions of their books, David Bowie and many other musicians release compilation albums containing songs they'd released before. Nobody says: "Hey! Hang on a minute! You already got paid for that!" so there is an argument to be made of: "Hang on, I thought Hive was freedom-loving?"
Plagiarism
"Plagiarism is presenting someone else's work or ideas as your own, with or without their consent, by incorporating it into your work without full acknowledgement. ... Plagiarism may be intentional or reckless, or unintentional."
--University of Oxford
If you go to a website and either copy a paragraph or even the whole page and post it to Hive (Or anywhere for that matter), that's Plagiarism, and don't think you can be clever by rearranging a few words or sentences because checker tools can spot that. You can't get away with pasting it in your post with the idea of making comments or observations on the piece you copied, either. There are instances whereby it is acceptable to reference somebody else's work, usually, by containing the item in < blockquote > some text < /blockquote > as I did above and also give the original author source. Ultimately, the best advice is: Stay away from other peoples work!
Copypasta
Pretty much the same as Plagiarism, TBH. It's copying someone else's work and pasting it as your own post. I think the term should be dropped and stick with plain old Plagiarism.
Post Farming
This is the practice of either regurgitating an old post, remember we talked about this and how musicians etc., resold old songs? Or, and generally more common, posting the same content through multiple accounts. I'm not a fan of people having multiple accounts for this very reason it encourages less scrupulous folk to post the same thing through, in some cases, hundreds of accounts to pick up as many votes as possible across these accounts so that all those --Child Accounts can be harvested for their rewards.
Posting the same post in another language does not constitute a different post!
This is a common mistake made by people where English is not their first language. The best advice is to make your post-Dual Language. Either side by side or alternating paragraphs.
Vote Farming
This is tied fairly closely to Post Farming; this is where multiple accounts owned by the same individual vote on a post from one of their accounts, usually the main account, in an attempt to give the impression the post is viral and that maybe others should vote on it thus artificially inflating its value.
- Circle Jerk Voting: There are a lot of support groups on Hive that predominantly Upvote Minnows work. There are also Communities that vote on fellow members posts; however, HW seems to frown on people getting their aunt, uncle, brother, sister to vote on a piece of work or a group of people constantly voting for each other in what looks like a voting ring.
Spamming
While there is an element of the conventional understanding of "Spamming" covered within these criteria, such as people dropping some advert in the comments section of a post, on the whole, it relates to what is more commonly known in the wider Internet community as Pinging. This is where someone includes your username in a list of usernames on their post, which will notify each and every username, thereby ensuring everyone will look at the author's post and possibly upvote it. It's a less sophisticated form of Vote Farming.
Dear Hivewatchers: Please feel free to copy-n-paste my explanations on the HW website. This work is licensed under Creative Commons copy/edit/share attribution. 🙂
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"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
This is a very useful FAQ and sorely needed.
However Hivewatchers general lack of transparency, automated downvoting of all content, forcing people to Discord (a centralised service that has nothing to do with Hive) to "appeal" are very problematic features.
When you set yourself up as the arbiters of what is allowed, you need to be beyond reproach, scrupulously fair and completely transparent. Hive watchers is none of those things.
It is important for Hivewatchers to understand that the law of defamation applies to them as it does to everyone else on Hive. If they wrongly flag something as plagiarism, and automatically downvote it, they have defamed the author and can be sued.
I had the conversation of "Transparency " many times on the Discord channel. I'm not sure either the concept or the need was fully understood. For example, I saw many people asking who adm was and to be honest, at the time, even I didn't know till it came out that it was an account connected to HW. I'm uneasy with, shall we say, clandestine accounts running up and down the blockchain dispensing a form of justice. I think there should just be HW downvotes only so that it is clear to everyone that it is HW's action and responsibility, but that's my opinion.
Agreed.
As a lawyer you should understand that downvoting is not defamation. It's been a while since I heard this idea though. The last time was back ahead of the hostile takeover. Right about this time of year actually. Right before our stakeholders had their accounts stolen.
Downvoting is not itself defamation, but wrongfully flagging a post as plagiarised can be. The downvoting will contribute to the damages claim.
You're wrong. A downvote is a downvote and my downvote is the same as yours and the same as any account's. The downvote doesn't have any parameters to it as to why it was cast. You know this. Why would you assume that a downvote cast is only cast for plagiarism? I don't see any comments on any posts that are non-plagiarism. And you yourself know that actual plagiarism is illegal. This is a pointless argument.
Plagiarism may or may not violate copyright law of particular countries, however only the copyright holder has a right to bring a lawsuit. There is no third party right of enforcement. It is not criminal and damages have to be proved.
Defamation, by falsely accusing someone of plagiarism, is also a violation of the law in many countries. In some places there is automatic damages (without having to prove it) and it can be a criminal offence. This is the case in Israel for example.
Thus Defamation is a far more serious issue than plagiarism.
If defamation is proved then downvotes received after the defamatory false plagiarism notification (eg by Hivewatchers) could well be considered by the Court as part of the damages.
Essentially Hivewatchers is a vigilante organisation that purports to uphold one law (copyright) but appears to regularly violate another (defamation).
Courts really don't like people taking the law into their own hands.
As I've previously advised, Hivewatchers is playing with fire and will sooner or later get burned.
Pointing out that a plagiarized article is plagiarized is not false accusation. It is a fact. Speaking freely about something is called "free speech". You claim to be a free speech witness yet you have an issue with a person receiving a comment from another person. People are allowed to speak, comment and vote. This is why Hive exists. To give people this right.
Also, no one is upholding any law here. This s a blockchain and a project on it. This isn't INTERPOL. It is decentralized. I don't know what law school you supposedly went to but it's completely beyond me how you don't understand any of the basic concepts behind why a decentralized community even exists after all these years of trying to explain it to you.
I agree with you; a downvote is not defamation. But as a lawyer, what is the position regarding defamation if an individual is erroneously placed on the Blacklist? Surely that constitutes public notification that said individual is a transgressor lumped into a list of other transgressors?
Asking for a friend. 😉🤣
Nowadays there is no "the Blacklist". Every hive account can create its own blacklist (which is publicly accessible information on the blockchain). And the "meaning" of that blacklist is strictly up to the hive account itself to define (if it even chooses to do so).
Users and specific frontends can read any of these blacklists, and use or ignore the data as they see fit. Hivewatchers operates one of the most well-known such blacklist and while I'm not familiar with the details, I do believe that some users operate bots that follow some of the blacklists created by hivewatchers.
Ultimately, all blacklists serve as some sort of opinion about the accounts on that particular blacklist. For example, you could create a blacklist for people you believe are spammers.
However, I think @apshamilton is trying to build a "bridge too far" by equating the putting of an account on a blacklist as legal defamation.
Just to begin with, defamation requires a false statement of fact. Putting someone on a blacklist is, generally speaking, not making a statement of fact about an account. For example, say someone created a list of accounts that they suspect of plagiarism. That doesn't mean they are outright accusing them of plagiarism, it just indicates that they suspect them of it. This breaks the first required element of defamation: "To be considered defamatory, the statement must concern a matter of fact, not simply an opinion."
What I am talking about is Hivewatchers posting a comment that wrongfully says something is plagiarised, when it is not. This happens. This is a wrongful statement of fact and may be defamatory.
I never even mentioned blacklists and I have made it clear that what I am talking about is when Hivewatchers gets it wrong (not when it gets it right).
@guiltyparties you continue to miss the point of what I am saying and keep attacking straw men.
What I am pointing out is that every time Hivewatchers gets it wrong and posts a comment saying something is plagiarised then it exposes itself to legal liability.
Although for completeness, in some jurisdictions (eg Israel & NSW before recent reforms) a statement can be defamatory even if it correct. In these jurisdictions one must prove truth AND public interest to sustain the defence.
@blocktrades I'd ask you to have a look at the way @wil.metcalfe was treated over paid translation of his posts into 3 other languages (see his detailed comment below).
Can you really justify this behaviour?
This sort of thing is happening all the time and pushing good content producers off Hive. It undermines all the good work you do on the backend.
Why are you supporting the Hivewatchers DHF proposal with your vote when they refuse to change their ways.
Their approach to what constitutes plagiarism is far too broad, their "guilty until proven innocent" by appeal on Discord is offensive and unfair, they lack transparency.
I am not suggesting we get rid of Hivewatchers altogether, but it is clearly in need of reform.
First off, thanks for the comment. It must have taken a while to write?
Sadly, I have to disagree. I believe any lawyer could successfully demonstrate that by placing a name on a 'List' designed to group individuals together, either proven or accused of, let's say being plagiarists, for example, is a classic case of "Tarring everyone with the same brush" Let's imagine for a minute that it was a list of paedophiles. I suspect people would take that a bit more seriously than "Oh, it's just a list on a social media platform that most of the web hasn't even heard about." I would also point out that on the Hive Watchers Discord server in the #appeals channel, nearly all the cases I saw in the six months I spent on there people were told quite openly and in no uncertain terms what they were: "YOU'RE A PLAGIARIST! YOUR BAN IS PERMANENT!" I should also be clear and say I did see a portion of people in effect clear their name or at the very least accept their mistake and pledge to rehabilitate their behaviour.
Rather than going round and round in circles, I suspect we're going to agree to disagree on this one? Personally, I'm not overly bothered. My account is only tiny; I've never bought Hive with fiat, and I just don't have the time to spend all day every day on Hive, just the odd periods here and there. Having said that, I suppose if I had been buying Hive with hard currency and invested thousands in the platform, as I know a good few have, I guess I would have a different opinion?
Enjoy
@dickturpin,
I am sure that many might fear even engaging with your post... getting a "target" on their back. I was in the U.S. Army... I know that game. But that's not what we are talking about here. I have been on the blockchain since 2017... caught up in a Whale War... and I do not wish to be involved in one of those again. But, again... not what we are talking about. To me, it goes back to how I was raised; if it's something that's not yours... don't mess with it. If it's absolutely imperative that you mess with it, then ask for permission. Common sense, respect, manners... all things that seem to have become a "Black Art" but we can't all be perfect... right? I am being ornery here, but I do take this post very seriously! I know many people from Hive Watchers... and I have, in my time, tried to help people that were on the "no-no list" there as well. I do think that the need for rules is important... a balance of things if you will. I have many family members who are all part of Law Enforcement, whether Civilian Side or Military (try talking about that at a party in High School)... but I have also seen many good folks who got caught in some kind of crossfire... Their accounts basically ruined. Their name dragged through the proverbial mud.... shame really.
What am I trying to say? I don't know, but I do think we need to come to some "common ground" here. We talk about all the cool points of Web3 or Decentralized or C3PO or whatever you want to call it (humor again, because that's how I roll)... this separation certainly does not foster a "Hey, let's go to that place and post stuff!" mindset... I most certainly don't want to be flamed... everyone that knows me knows my main goal is to spread positive energy on the blockchain... Help others... Make someone smile. But I also can't just be quiet (sit on my hands) when I know so many people that have been hurt... or left the blockchain altogether, for misinformation and misunderstanding. My MS brain is kicking in, and I see I am rambling. But thank you for writing this up...
P.S. Hey @melinda010100 I wrote this up on Ecency Woot!
Love and light, my friends!
!LUV !WINE !giphy Compromise
And there's the point right there. You should be able to voice your opinion without fear of retribution. Sadly, and I've discussed this before. Some people have started using Downvotes as a weapon to either silence others or drive them off the platform. I think there is an even greater crime, and that's those who believe everything is rosy in the garden. I'm not saying Hive has a significant problem as such; what I am saying is "There's room for improvement." and there's always room for that if people want Hive to get bigger.
Thanks for giving Ecency a go. @wesphilbin ! I love seeing people who are helping others attempt to be fair and balanced. I hope you gained some insight that you can pass on to others, and you know where to come to ask any questions you might have. Plus by posting you earned som POINTS!
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But what if we mentioned that it was first posted on (for example) utube with the date and link? As much as I can remember as long as it's 100% transparent and first time posted on hive for example utube video to 3speak, it gets an upvote. Are the 3speak curators don't see it as rule breaking? Last time when I asked some forks, I don't get the exact answer. Till now I think it's allowed.
Please spread some light on this matter. @hivewatchers
Yes, if you decline rewards. Remember, it's all about the money.
As we have discussed a few times some of these types of abuse are debatable. I think the guiding principle that each post should be mostly original content. If it includes something you did before then there should be enough to make it something new. Where the threshold lies is up to those viewing it. You should also be honest and up-front if there is any copying or repetition. Trying to hide it will make people suspicious.
I see HW refer to 'copypasta'. I guess that's an in-joke.
I have said a few times that there should be an element of forgiveness. Some cases are honest mistakes due to lack of awareness of what is expected and people should be given a chance without making them beg. Repeat offenders are something else.
There is something about this on the main Hive site.
!PIZZA
So I tried very hard to make this non-confrontational it is a genuine offer for HW's FAQ because I believe, as you pointed out, a lot of the transgressions are mistakes that, to be honest, NOBODY tells them about. I mean, think about it. You get a notification that you've done something wrong me personally; I would go to Hivewatchers website, find out what the rules are, and yet there's fook all on there apart from "Hey! Wanna report somebody?" is that the way to promote Hive? I think not. It's almost like the omission of a guide and an FAQ is a deliberate ploy to allow people to fall foul through ignorance?
They need to get this into lots of languages too. I'm sure there are people who could do that.
!BEER
Gasp! That's post farming! 🤣🤣🤣
Did I say it should be posts? You can decline rewards on dupes of course.
Yeah, that should be acceptable.
You need to stake more BEER (24 staked BEER allows you to call BEER one time per day)
Thanks.
Yep. I didn't write it as such for long time Hive/STEEM users, although I have seen examples of people who have been on the blockchain a long time still not understanding why they are on HW's blacklist. Hopefully, my intention was to explain in a way those individuals could understand and was not intended to rewrite the rules.
"Rules? I never saw any Rules when I signed up?" 🤣
Very nicely written. Shame we are losing people who genuinely make mistakes due to their age, language barrier or WWW experience. However, it is also true we have got lots of abusers and it is really hard to know if the user is the one or the other. So everyone is treated the same way... which defo needs addressing.
And it is also confusing when you ask a question and you get multiple answers all around and not on point. Sarcasm is not helping!
ABSOLUTELY! And some of them are so convincing. There were numerous occasions while I was hanging out in the appeals channel that an individual appealing had within a few minutes convinced me they were unjustly accused only for HW to spew multiple pieces of evidence that proved they were not only lying but (in my own words) scumbags.
I totally agree we need something or someone to, in effect, protect us all from those doing wrong, but I also hold the view if a group or organisation cannot stand up to scrutiny or criticism, then maybe it's not fit for purpose? It has always been a cross of mine to bear in that just because I question things; they think I'm against it. This is simply not true.
Enjoy
Very useful info for everyone to know! Thanks for writing this.
More importantly, I want Hivewatchers to stick the definitions on their FAQ on their website. I don't care if they copy it verbatim or edit it to their own liking; just get it up there
!LUV
Wouldn't that be amazing! Hivewatchers actually being helpful? I would be shocked and awed!
Shocked? I think I'd have a heart attack! Especially if they attributed me. Although I suspect that would stick in some peoples throat! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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This is where much of the community abuse fighting takes place.
We have a pretty active growing set of mean people that does much the same work as hw'ers.
I have long encouraged folks to join us in the Hive-DR discord in order to expand the voices that make up the consensus.
Dissent is welcome there, but it is pretty rare to get any once folks follow along with what happens in the anti-abuse efforts.
Most of the squawking that goes on are folks that haven't invested any time into finding out what the initiatives do and are about.
I didn't enjoy my time in that channel. I'm all for educating people with regards to plagiarism etc but I have no desire to spend my time with a group of people who by their own admission are vicious. I truly see no need for it. I prefer a healthy discussion where ALL opinions and views are welcome even if they are at odds with others. I got the feeling Hive-DR was just an extension of the Hivewatchers server only meaner which is a shame because I know and like a fair few members in the Hive-DR channel. 🤷♂️
There's a lot of banter in there about being 'mean', but most of them have good intentions. I do not agree with going after someone out of spite, but people are free to use their voting power as they want. I do know I have seen a lot of good work done by people there.
I think "Banter" is an understatement. People join Discord channels to have an immediate communication experience with Hive users rather than waiting for a comment of reply on a post. I find it strange that people talk about members leaving Hive because of a perceived Toxic behaviour, and yet Hive-DR relishes in the reputation of being what some might argue, cruel. I like a joke along with the next person, and yes, in my time, I've said some dreadful things, but I'm trying to rehabilitate myself with Hive, so I'm a bit like one of those "Born again" types when it comes to how we should all treat one another in these communities.
As I said. There are a few people I really like, such as yourself, who hang out in that channel, so I suspect it would have been a good experience for me, but I'm not willing to expose myself or sink to that level again. 🙏🤣
I believe there was 'someone' going after me. I had a member DM me (I can show you if you like?) and apologise for their behaviour and advised I left the channel for my own safety! Fortunately, I had muted them long before they got into their stride.
I'm not saying there are no nasty people there. Some have been ejected in the past. I've got to know some of them and respect their opinions. I use it as a place to find where my downvote can be of use. HW does not handle all cases, but I let them do their thing generally.
How people come across online can give a wrong impression as you will know. Initial impressions can be misleading.
But then I keep saying Hive is the wild west and you will get some wrong-uns.
!BEER
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BEER.One does have to be able to stand their ground in the face of opposition, for sure, but that is what dissenting against popular opinion is all about.
It's not for the faint hearted or weak willed.
Adm doesn't downvote anything automatically. It was hooked up to Spaminator during the account changeover but that's been a while ago. Adm is a manual account that's used by various community members. Manual accounts can't autodownovte. As a general rule of thumb if anyone sees an account that has manual use, it's not suitable for any type of automation.
Hi
Thanks, I'll amend the post. Thanks for putting me right.
!LUV
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Nothing wrong with posting your old stuff from other platforms but best to use the form to verify identity first, talking of which, you didn't mention.
My suggestion is that most of HW guidelines are based on the principles laid out in the original white paper.
Anyway, as always, you know best :-)
Hey, they can be based on anything. That's the point! There isn't anything at the minute. Shouldn't you be on the channel talking to appellants while others get bollocked for doing it?
$WINE