This tpoic probably comes up periodically in discussions elsewhere periodically, but I'm getting asked about it in my post that LeoFinace is sneezing at: the 7-day earnings period:
- What were the circumstances which led to this policy?
- What would it take for a switch to a longer earnings period or even limited earnings with no time limit? (This will be compared to what Web 2.0 allows for a segment of its user base.)
As much as we gripe about Hive's lack of influencers and shillers, we may be ignoring a more fundamental point which goes beyond marketing.
Yes, we earn crypto when we post and comment and engage.
No, it's only for 7 days for each piece of original content.
If we're going to attract influencers who can drive new Hive account registrations, what can we tell them to persuade them to join us? Getting banned from Instagram or YouTube sucks, but so does not being able to monetize a post ot video with millions of likes.
Hive has much to offer people thanks to its dApps, its crypto, its decentralization, and its independent spirit. It would be a shame if people thinking about joining Hive decided to pass on it because of what they perceive as a restrictive earnings policy. So what do we overcome that objection (a potential Achilles' Heel)?
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I don't really think we can change the earning policy without major reform with the largest stakeholders. Also with the tips, people can still reward older content but it is out of your own pocket.
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Those are good points. If it means turning everything upside down just to bring in a celebrity, pro athlete, or influencer, then that effort is not worth the cost.
So we would need to let them know how they can still earn crypto with the current system. Passive rewards would be a big selling point, especially if they invested their own money at first. After all, what APR can Instagram or YouTube it Twitter or Facebook offer them for the content they monetized?
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None. All the people I see on Youtube are frightened that they may get kick off at any point in time and that it takes time to start earning anything.
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If Hive is going to land an influencer, why not Andrei Jikh?
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He is a good choice but I seriously doubt he would stay here. It might be just a cross-post though.
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If I get you straight, you're suggesting that the earning windows should not be limited, like it should be ever possible to gain rewards from posts from whenever?
Well, if that is to materialize, you do understand it will need a lot of things changed?
That includes payouts windows. This would need the system to shift to an instant payment format where what is earned is directly deposited in one's wallet at the time of earning. You can't actually expect it to run like YouTube because it would have to take upon a centralized approach, which is third party funds distribution, that if the instant payment isn't on your lists of thoughts. And this however puts to shame the whole hailed "decentralized media"
As of now, rewards are automated, but I'm not quite sure how this idea of changing earnings window could be Squeezed in to please the supposed users you're referring to.
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I accept the current system as it is, even if my preference would be for something different. Whatever the system in place is, we need to explain it to new people who learn what it is and may object to it. They may not be the kind of people we want at Hive, anyway, but that's a different discussion.
I expected that a lot was involved in making the current 7-day earnings period what is is; lots of analysis and evaluation, lots of visualization to make sure it made sense, lots of coding to implement and enforce this system, etc. I'm not asking about this lightly, and I want to know how it can be explained in a way which can be marketed as a plus rather than a minus. No one likes fine print, and that's what this is.
While it would be nice for content to bring us earnings as long as it's available, Hive cannot turn into Web 2.0 for payouts. So we are where we are, and we're doing OK with it because our experience here more than makes up for it.
Just as a small percentage of Web 2.0 people hit the big time in earnings, it's the same way here. And it's true that many people on YouTube are just happy to get exposure even if their content gets a small number of viewers or subscribers; it's that way everywhere.
I was asking because I wanted to know how we can bring high-powered influencers to Hive and even to Layer 2 where the dApps and games are. For them it would be culture shock in more ways than one. Hive is about more than money, but it's not a charity either.
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That's the problem with Hive. There are no direct rewards for publishing evergreen, long-form content. Only 7 days to get upvotes! Just imagine a clown comes and takes up half of your rewards because he doesn't like you or your post. Also, most of the upvotes come within 24 hours after publishing the post.
And Hive maxis wonder why people shitpost. It's simple, they have to! ✌
Hive is not a place for influencers with a huge following. Not worth their time unless we have like $10 HIVE and they get constant upvotes which is highly unlikely to happen in the next few years or so.
What's different on Hive is that you can use your stake to get passive rewards. Curation is quite underrated IMO. But for that, you need to buy HIVE first.
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What you see as a problem, I see as a positive. There's only a certain amount of HIVE that gets paid out every day. What you're saying is that you think someone who writes something good should just be able to get paid into infinity and basically take rewards from everybody else. So you write one or two good articles every year and get paid for life? That doesn't make any sense.
Influencers put out new content on a daily basis. Everyone knows that most content is either consumed in the first 24 hours or it gets shoved down the page and forgotten. Why do you think they keep putting out new stuff? They've made about as much as they're going to make on the old stuff. Sure, people may go back and view it later, but it's highly unlikely enough will to increase any payouts.
Seems to me you're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Seven days is more than enough time to get your content viewed. HIVE incentivizes people to be active and to keep creating. Isn't that what we want?
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I get what you are saying dagger but yes, if I write one or two good articles and they are so good that I deserve to get paid for life (until they become irrelevant to the masses), then why not? If the content is bringing more traffic continuously to Hive and its various front-ends, then there has to be a way to get rewarded.
Let's just say someone makes a movie or a tutorial and publishes it on Hive in 2021 which I find in 2022 and find valuable. Now there is no way to use my stake to reward the creator or reward myself for finding a gem and spending my precious time on it. The same goes with evergreen articles focusing on SEO. I know there is a TIP feature but it's underutilized right now. And only Peakd has it.
I know influencers who put out content on monthly basis and they do far better than millions of influencers out there who push out content like a factory. Traditional social media forces us to do the same. Their algo is made like that. Work it out every day. This would get interesting when AI is there to help you write the content for you.
I would want a single JPEG post to keep earning millions of dollars even after the payout period is over. If it is valuable or goes viral, the it deserves the rewards. Ultimately it's about the content and its value. Anyone can shitpost every day and get rewards.
I know right. But I love passive income way too much. So maybe I am actually creating a problem that is not there. 😂
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Write a book if you want long term rewards and residual income. Michael Jordan made some basketball shots that were off the charts. Guess how much they were worth? 2 points. Tiger Woods hit 350 yd drives that counted exactly the same as a two inch putt. And then he went to the next hole.
This is not a place that rewards one moment of brilliance. It rewards effort, consistency, engagement, and longevity. There are no short-cuts on HIVE. Nor, IMO, should there be. It's one of the things that makes this place great. No one can come in off the street and hog all the rewards. But anyone can come in off the street and earn those rewards.
The payouts aren't always "fair", but that works both ways. If you put in the time, you will be overcompensated sometimes for average work, just like you'll be undercompensated sometimes for brilliant work. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
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See, I am not looking for shortcuts. And there are none unless you are ready to screw up your reputation. Talking about longevity, again, my posts after 7 days do not have a chance to get rewarded. I might have put 3 days of research before putting out a post that could bring traffic to the platform continously. So in a sense longevity of content is not rewarded. But yes, you have a chance to get rewarded for time being spent commenting and socializing with others. I am not saying the current system is flawed. There are PROs and CONs. Maybe we can add some kind of incentive if someone's content provides value (more traffic/pageviews) to the platform in long term. Maybe add another token but I don't think this can be implemented at the base level. Maybe tribes or some DApp would come up with their own ideas. Like Peakd has tips! Like Leo Finance is providing more opportunities for its users to stay on the platform and that is why it has a chance to become bigger than Hive one day. ✌ I know all of it is one big experiment and I thought of throwing in some suggestions. These could improve the experience of the current and the new users but I might be wrong. You guys know better how this platform works and how it has been evolved over the past 4-5 years.
Agreed! Traditional social media is the most unfair of all. Hive is far better in terms of rewarding people for their effort and time. In fact it's easier to catch eyeballs and make money on Hive as compared to Youtube or any other blogging platform. Everyone has the same number of opportunities presented to them. One needs to just look around.
Hopefully, one day! 😁 Need your full support to sell millions of copies Dagger ✌
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There ARE tokens out there for this purpose. POSH tokens I think are for twitter stuff. PIZZA, LUV, WINE, BEER are all tokens that you get as "tips". There's a couple more I can't think of right now.
There are also many curation accounts actively looking for quality original content to reward. OCDB comes to mind. I've actually got some HIVE delegated to them.
I get what you're saying as far as wishing there was a way to get paid more for impactful articles but....newspaper/magazine writers don't get paid like that. They just get their salary no matter how many brilliant articles they write. The newspaper/magazine makes all the money from more issues being sold and then the writer(s) selling them have to negotiate payment terms after the fact. It just feels like you're barking up the wrong tree here. I could be wrong. You may come up with a brilliant idea and then can submit a proposal and change everything. :-) That's the great thing about this place. We all have that ability/possibility.
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That is true, my ideas are only great if they are implemented either by me or someone else. ✌
Discussion on these issues or enhancements is fine but in order to introduce them in the system, it could take years of development effort.
These look like some great options. I recently started getting POSH tokens so I keep accumulating in addition to all the other Tip Tokens. Hopefully, their value and use-cases increase over time then it will be worth the effort.
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Yeah I think this is a good way to summarize my opinion.
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I made a few posts thinking (based on recent history with the topic for me) that they would earn me up to 100 LEO. They ended up much closer to 1 LEO than 100 LEO. Heck if I know why.
I've also made a few posts I thought were so-so, and the earned LEO on them nade ne smile. I can't say why in this case, either.
We write the best posts we can, but the earnings are a crapshoot much of the time (not including exceptions, of course).
The major earnings are made during the first day or two of the 7 day period, and more earnings are made the other days. None of us are saying older content earns at the same rate as fresh content, but a reward for traffic generated by the older content would be nice (even if it's 0.000000010 LEOs). If older content produces, it should be rewarded in some way. If older content fails to produce, we get paid in ZEROES (each one valued at 0.000).
I'm not saying it has to happen that way, and I'm not saying older content should break the bank for us.
Just as Hive and Ethereum have Layer 2 solutions, there could be a "Layer 2" solution added to the payout system. If anything, it would be an opportunity for investors to put their mark on Hive in a new way, and if the idea succeeds a new pool of funding can be created for handling the rewarding of older content which produces. These investors need to be rewarded as well. No post gets rewarded just because it's 6 years old-- it has to produce for Hive in some way. Otherwise it gets rewarded with ZEROES (0.000).
I'm not saying do awy with the 7-day period or modify it in some way. I'm saying reward productive older content in some way. There's plenty of time to figure this out, so it doesn't have to be done here today.
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Another thing is there are factions on hive too. Taking down each other using downvotes and make sure any newbie that comes don't get more votes either. In socialist decentralized world, yes, divide always happens. There is a reason why democracy and system was invented.
Hive seems like a political democracy to me. I would like it to be more decentralized. All in due time.
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Hive should be a democracy in that everyone gets what they want in some way. No one should support something they're against. That's why we upvote what appeals to us and stake the tokens we want to support. Hive should not be a political place; for that, stay with Web 2.0.
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Hive is one of the most political crypto communities I have seen. Sometimes there's too much of it. But that's okay!! We vote for witnesses and it's bound to get political.
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It looks as if we need to tell potential influencers (or even potential shillers) that what they lose in earnings can be made up for my a myriad ways of investing. For these influencers or shillers, they may need to make a sizeable upfront investment, but the APY will make it worth their investment and make up for the sizeable upfront investment.
We would need to iron out the specifics to make it suitable for marketing or short discussions, but this seems like something we can work with to attract influencers and shillers.
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Marketing a range of opportunities for earning and staking Hive would require millions of dollars to reach out to the masses. Influencer marketing could be a key into this! ✌
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Not necessarily. There are case studies we can use based on the history of certain Hivers across all categories (old and new Hivers; former Steemians and post-Independence Day Hivers; bloggers for text and multimedia; gamers; content producers who invest; pure investors; other categories I can't think of at the moment).
These case studies can supplement testimonials. All can be distilled to marketing tools we can use either for guerilla marketing or just casual conversation with anyone who asks.
Marketing as envisioned by those who budgeted for marketing campaigns can still take place as expecxted. We can boost it with a little from all of us in parallel. I'm no marketing expert on the of @forexbrokr and @ryzeonline, but I know enough to say there are things we can do at the lowest level possible.
Just as we want Hive decentralized, marketing can be decentralized also.
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(Emphasis added)
This may be the thing which can tip the scales in our favor for attracting influencers.
[State your Web 2.0 app here] doesn't give you passive rewards? #HiveFixesThis.
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Yes, that could be one of the points to market Hive. But I still think we need to market the DApps instead of just Hive blockchain. Rather than talking about the base level we should talk about real-life use cases built on Hive. Curation rewards are a small part of a bigger ecosystem. There are other hidden opportunities to make money. We need to get them out in the open. Maybe adoption is taking its own pace to happen.
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That was one reason I published this post last night, before LeoFiannce ate it. (If you have trouble accessing it, view the Ecency version of this post
instead.) After all, how many new Splinterlands players even know about Hive except that things they had to sign up for in order to play the game?
Instagram was acquired by Facebook, so technically it's a Facebook app. Even so, many users of Instagram still see themselves as Instagram users first. It would be similar for Hive and the dApps that interact with blockchain at Layer 2.
I'm not saying we don't market Hive at Layer 1-- everything else depends on Hive. However, I am saying we can devote more effort to market whatever we care about from Layer 2. Both kinds of marketing can take place in parallel.
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The thing I think most people are failing to recognize is the fact that cryptocurrency as a whole is still in it's infancy. We're just now reaching the point where maybe half the people in developed countries have heard of Bitcoin. But even there, I would guess less than 10% really know what it is. Probably substantially less than that.
HIVE is not even on the radar yet among the masses. But it's getting there. Bitcoin and Ethereum have started to shine the light on crypto and more people are starting to take a look. But they will ALL start with Bitcoin, Ethereum, and believe it or not, probably DOGE. But until they actually gain some sort of understanding of what the technology actually does and why it's important, you're not going to see too many people head this direction.
That's why #Splinterlands is such a big deal. People will end up learning about HIVE almost by accident. Same holds true for 3Spk and ProjectBlank. Once those apps start attracting notice, the people that want to learn what it's all about will discover HIVE and everything it offers. Until then, we can market til we're blue in the face and we'll pick people up by ones and twos. These apps are the key to bringing them in by the 10s, 100s, and ultimately, hopefully the 1000s.
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Cryptocurrency is definitely in its infancy. Few of us if any will have bought Bitcoin when it was worth less than SHIB, but in the grand scheme of things we are early adopters of cryptocurrency. If the 1849 California Gold Rush began in, say, April, then we would be at the crypto-equivalent of June 1849. Whatever the timing was for the 1849 California Gold Rush, we are 2 months after its beginning.
Bitcoin and Ethereum are what's in the news all the time, and Dogecoin gets a few mentions during the week. For me, Dogecoin crossed over from being a memecoin to being a bona fide crypto. Take away it's market cap ranking, its influencers, and its hype. and it is doing well enough on its merits. There is no way it will be in the same class as Bitcoin, Ethereum, or Litecoin, but Dogecoin is close to being what it promised to be: a fun Internet money for the people.
The only use of Bitcoin as money I know about is that 2 pizza pie purchase from its early days when people couldn't give away Bitcoin fast enough. Meanwhile, all I hear about Ethereum is high gas fees due to traffic congestion. Take away the jokes and the memes about Dogecoin, and it has a history of being used as money, and isn't that the ultimate purpose of cryptocurrency? After all, none of us got into Hive or cryptocurency to use it for waxing the floor or baking sourdough bread.
Getting people to join Hive as Hive would be hard, and it doesn't help that search engines bring up that "Hive Blockchain" company before Our Hive. Splinterlands is doing a lot of heavy lifting for us, and it's amazing how much has happened over the last two months thanks to Splinterlands.
iPhone was a nice device, but it was the App Store which made it useful to people. "There's an app for that" was maybe the most important sentence anyone had said during the 2000s. Without the apps from the App Store, iPhone was just a horrendously priced crystal brick.
I see Hive in a similar situation. As great as Hive is, it will be the Layer 2 dApps which help people realize its greatness. LeoFinance is doing that on the blogging side. Splinterlands is doing that on the blockchain gaming side. SPK Network is doing that on the multimedia side. #CXCMusic and #Beatzchain are doing it on the music side. When these succeed, Hive succeeds, and then we succeed. We cannot underestimate the importance of Layer 2 for Hive.
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Yeah the Splinterlands this it's a great gateway. I was watching a streamer the other day and some of the audience was complaining they couldn't combine cards in the game because they were out of RC so the streamer went on and gave them a crash course on why staking HIVE is important and how they could do that.
Some people had no idea that there was this whole thing called Hive behind the game
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Was this like watching a movie trailer at the movies before the feature attraction, only this video was streaming during gameplay?
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I am not so sure what can be done. Increasing the payout window won't help at all. Need some other mechanism to solve this.
We have tips on Peakd but does anyone use them? I don't think so!
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Whether we try to attract influencers and shillers or not, where may be some things we can try while keeping the earnings system
as-is:There are tricks that have been developed over time which go beyond the basics we learn at first. Knowing where to go to find this sort of information will be useful to both normal Hivers and the influences we'd like to bring over.
This sort of information doesn't need to be centralized, but it needs to be more easily available for all of us to access and update as needed.
If we can show how influencers can still make the big bucks even without considereing the 7-day earnings period we use, this would be huge for us and for them. They wouldn't want to start from zero and spend 5 years to reach 1 million HP, but if they know they can bring over their Web 2.0 money to Web 3.0 Hive and let math work in their favor with the insane returns crypto is famous for, that can work in our favor.
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These are some amazing points, Magna. I think answers to these questions would make a great guide for a newbie on Leo Finance or Hive. Many people struggle to find answers to such basic questions even after spending a good time on the platform. Hive/LeoFinance are not just content creation platforms. There are hundreds of other opportunities catering to different kinds of users and their interests ✌
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Guides covering these topics would be for everyone, not just newbies. How much did you learn about making more HIVE/LEO when you were a newbie? Not that much. I'm guessing you picked it up after three months as you followed the examples of a number of your fellow Hivers and Leos.
Even if you learned about many ways to earn more crypto here, how long did it take you to get in a position where you could do any of those things? Someone constantly in RC Jail wouldn't be in a position to post, while someone with 1500 HP can delegate to a number of accounts and even invest in successful projects from LeoFiannce and the crew at Hive.Pizza. Having a roadmap for Hivers is just as important as having a roadmap for Hive social blockchain.
People just need to know what is out there and when it makes sense for them to do those things.
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Right. Took me a while to understand this game. If I had better guides, the learning curve would have been a lot lesser. Also, I didn't ask enough questions initially due to lots of apprehensions. My best newbie advice would be to ask questions directly instead of wasting time to look everywhere. Because so far there's no one guide that could tell you all the hacks.
That's a brilliant idea because everyone could use a list of steps and items they need to do to get up to speed.
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It's like New Hire Orientation at a job only without Human Resources. Once we know the basics of what we need to do to use crypto to make more crypto, we can focus on that instead of trying to figure out who to ask or where to go to be able to do that. When we're ready to take it to another level, then we go to there those people are to see how they did it.
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Community is the Human Resources. It's a huge community effort after all. ✌
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I'm a bit skeptical about the influencer thing but in general I agree with everything you said, especially the information part. Things can be very complicated for people who are very new to crypto.
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On one hand, it would be nice to land an influencer with high name recognition. On the other hand, the influencer should join us on our terms, not his or hers.
Both Web 2.0 and Web 3.0 use likes or their equivalents. Hive offers crypto, and their Web 2.0 apps don't. Other Web 3.0 services offer crypto as well, but can they say they fought the power? Hive can.
I may be wrong here, but as far as I can tell Hive is the only crypto-rewarding platform which is community first, and Hive's war for independence is proof. This looks to me like Hive's USP, and we can use that as a marketing tool.
We combine that with the numerous ways investing in Hive can help their money grow in ways not possible with the Web 2.0 services they came from, that seems to be a powerful 1-2 punch.
FB/IG/YT/Tw may let you make bank; Hive is bank, and you are your own bank at Hive. This concept can be fine-tuned to sound less clumsy, but the kernel for a powerful marketing tool is in there.
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You tell them the same thing that everyone else on here does that makes money: put in the effort and put out quality material and you will gather a following and get paid. Pretty standard stuff. Most of these influencers obviously already understand that better than most people here. Maybe there is an exception or two out there but the vast majority of the people making money on youtube have been doing it for years. Not weeks. Not months. Not a year. YearSSS.
Starting over on HIVE would certainly suck. But when they're banned and lose all their content, we'll see how long it takes them to switch then.
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Even if they have to start over, they need to be persuaded that it's worth it for them. If they can see that after 1 year they made substantial progress (however they want to define that for themselves), they wouldn't feel do bad about starting from scratch. Just as they had to work at the Web 2.0 platform to get where they got, they would need to work here.
If they have money they can invest when they start, then it's just a matter of math doing its thing for them. They would still need to work to gain followers either from the platform they left or from here or both. Then they can prove their influence across multiple platforms and paradigms (Web 2.0 and Web 3.0). Money alone can't buy that.
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I think 7 day window is definitely hurting video and image based content creators. I mean one can let go of the written content but video and image are expensive in it's effort. So 7 day window often kills good content.