I was reading @nonameslefttouse comment in response to @gric's situation.
I started to respond, but I ended up writing a pretty long comment and I feel others might find it interesting as well.
A quick catch up if you are not aware with the situation. I am personally not involved, but I know a little of what is going on.
@gric has been getting downvoted for re-using old content he previously posted. I purposely have stayed out of this, but I did read a few comments from @nonameslefttouse trying to help the situation and started to respond with the comment you see here below.
This is my comment to @nonameslefttouse but really to @gric as well.
I chose not to be involved in this, but I am know a little of what is going on.
While this doesn't directly relate to @gric's situation, my rule of thumb for using third party content some what applies here.
I have done anti-abuse on Steem & Hive for over 5 years and in that time developed my own guidelines.
Yes, I know it isn't "third party" content, but hear me out, this might take a second to explain.
Generally using third party content in posts is perfectly acceptable if it is properly sourced. There are some nuances though, and in the years of fighting abuse, I came up with a few rule of thumbs I use as my own guidance.
When using third party content (image, video, music), if this content is your post, in other words you are basically posting this content with little to no original work, sourced or not I feel this is unacceptable and I would typically flag it.
For example, say you grab someone else's meme and post it with nothing else or even just a sentence or two. I don't believe this type of content should be rewarded. Every post is eligible for rewards from a shared reward pool, so what is perfectly acceptable on Redit and other social media platforms, is not necessarily acceptable here.
Now let's say you write a fantastic post about how we just discovered the solar system is in fact surrounded by a bubble (new discovery, check it out) and you included more than one image related to it, all properly sourced. I'm perfectly ok with this, these third party images add to your post and are not the post.
Now I haven't looked into Gric's post because I haven't been flagging it and I'm not into anti-abuse anymore so I now decide how much or how little I want to get involved in these things.
If @gric reuses content he has been rewarded for in the past in a post where this content is the majority of the post with little to know original content, I would agree with downvotes. Again I don't know as I am not paying attention or getting involved.
While it is perfectly acceptable to use your own content whoever you like, Hive is a unique ecosystem where the community rewards original content with a reward pool shared by everyone. Once you have been rewarded for something, it is generally accepted you will not attempt to get rewarded for the same content again.
Now let's say I draw a picture of a banana, and I think it is fantastic. This is obviously fantasy, as I can't draw for shit. But let's say I did and I posted it and my post does really well (I make more than $0.00).
I then decide to post a year later my favorite banana bread recipe (Try it, it is damn good) and decide to include my own banana art work in this post. I have no issues with this as the post is about the banana bread recipe that on it's own is quality original content, the banana artwork just adds to the post.
On the other hand, let's say I made a post saying hey look at my banana and I posted about only my banana, I don't believe this should be rewarded. I mean I am pretty proud of my banana, I just don't believe I should be asking for rewards a second time.
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The art of communication in the real world involves repeating oneself on a regular basis. A person who makes a notable discovery needs to repeat the discovery.
Even the success of HIVE involves a certain amount of repetition. For example, people drum messages about the importance of powering up HIVE on the first of every month.
New users need to be greeted when they join HIVE. The people who greet newbies write similar messages.
Since repeating things is a natural part of human communications, I think we should expect some repetition.
I draw the line at copying and pasting. I believe that the best way to repeat arguments is to write the repeated posts from scratch.
Interestingly, the act of writing the same post twice often provides the author with new insights on the topic. I find that whenever I rewrite an article, I gain new insights on the subject at hand.
Occasionally, HIVE authors have materials published on a different platform.
The best way to handle that situation is to write a post that paraphrases the article and then to link to the article.
This is also the best way to handle youtube and threespeak videos.
You have nailed it all down, I must say.
Repetition is quite a large part of the human nature. And since that is so, trying to act like repetition is like an abomination is too stiff a hold. What I mean is, to have a an ecosystem that thrives, the ecosystem needs to be made flexible.
Flexibility, in the sense that, most authors get new insights when the revisit an article (or idea) of theirs because, with time and experience, their perspectives change and they see in a different direction.
Honestly, I personally can not feel comfortable of letting my new insight to an idea, that I have once shared, to die down or lay to waste all because I'm trying to "not upset" the ecosystem.
But with the way you nailed it, I now know better. Rather than being worried about upsetting the ecosystem, I'd instead work in a manner that would bless the ecosystem; which is "to write the repeated posts from scratch," like you have said.
Taking this a step forward ... An expert is a person who concentrates a great deal of effort on a single area. An expert heart surgeon pretty much does nothing but hearts.
A person does not become an expert without repeating the same procedures over and over again.
I would not go to a surgeon who made a point of never operating on the same part of the body part twice. I would want a heart surgeon that has concentrated on hearts for years.
The insistence that HIVE should be free of repetition means that the platform intentionally excludes experts. True expert on any given subject will end up repeating the same basic principles over and over.
Experts can be real bores.
HIVE would have no room for thinkers like Euclid. Euclid's geometry had only five postulates. Yeah, the guy repeats the postulates to create all of the theorems of Geometry, but the guy really only had original material for five posts.
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You totally cracked me up with Euclidean geometry. And you are absolutely right.
Well, I guess it is what it is. Everything here on HIVE is quite subjective. Everyone will always have their opinions and their decisions. That's basically life...
I really love your approach to this matter. Quite brilliant, I must say.
Well exposed @yintercept and yeah, I agree with everything you've said here. As well as I agree with what @darth-azrael mentioned and highlighted in his comment below.
After all, ¿What the heck is "original/originality"?
It is not that most or everything of what we "know", most of what we "understand" and "talk/write about" from the world is based on things which we have already received from other people? Things we've already read, seen or heard previously from the brains of everyone else?
Hey! "original" not even my own banana. };)
Personally, I think that the only things that HIVE should guard against are copyright violations and direct copy and paste jobs.
BTW: Copyright laws are really odd.
Paraphrasing and restating ideas should be accepted.
Public domain images, creative commons images and stock images (provided the user paid the stock photography fee.)
👌🏻 giving a link to old post is good idea. Sometimes we want modifying our old post
I basically agree.
And if people want to re-use old content that they think was under-rewarded in the past, they always have the option of using that old content as a base, refining it, adding to it, making it something better, augmented, different.
Of course then there's the issue of what counts as 'different enough' - but I think that's one of those flexi-always-to-be-debated issues.
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I'll need to see your banana to be 100% clear about this situation.
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After reading the article with great seriousness, I was examining the comments and when I came across your article, all my seriousness broke down. 😀
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I did downvote a few things on Gric's posts, but I did think about it further.
I think I would prefer curators to stop voting for recycling your own post, but those dang autovoters.
But, for the most part, I like your assessment.
THIS
I'd also add that in this particular case, I have been downvoting him for a while because he never comments on other's posts, barely replies to his own and is obviously here to farm rewards whilst not giving a damn about Hive. He's also an obnoxious and entitled git.
Gric now says he knows he is farming and he is okay with it. He thinks we just ought to pay him money just because he is posting on hive. I don’t get the logic, do you? Not to mention he is on full powerdown and does have a foul mouth!
It’s fairly common for successful authors to eventually stop or lower their quality to minimum amount required to maintain rewards. I can’t speak for @gric as I haven’t even looked or researched it. I know what people are saying and that’s it.
I agree and I also agree on your assessment in general. I think community does not like when someone says that they are farming. We have seen that with Slowwalker, jrcornel, heijin, me-Tarzan, and many others. Community will take care of the problem.
Those rules make sense. I like to see revived old posts and series, but I would not like to see it posted without a source to the original.
I actually have such a series that I would like to edit, and put on the blockchain in full. Part of it was published on a now dead centralized platform, but the end has never been seen.
This post has been manually curated by the VYB curation project
Well, I learned the hard way that on hive it is acceptable never. I reposted a handful of old posts that were originally posted more than 5 years ago on that other platform primarily because I wanted to correct some formatting issues (mostly broken image links) and was nailed by hivewatchers for my trouble.
I can definitely see how reposting your old content CAN be abusive but chances are, rewarded previously or not, there is a whole new audience 5 years later. Why should a new audience be prevented from rewarding your older stuff? People that have read and rewarded your content previously can make their own decisions.
Given the nature of hive and the fact that old posts typically aren't even seen, it seems like it should be reasonable to repost content after some reasonable time period. Of course "reasonable" can be highly subjective but surely in a supposedly decentralized system that can at least be handled by individual voters and not a self-appointed policing agency?
I get it, this is the real world and we have things like autovotes and other factors that skew things. Not that i have a specific solution but what we need is a smarter way to vote or a smarter hivewatchers instead of this one size fits all approach.
This is true my friend. Providing with the original content of yours is something that is highly acceptable in the hive ecosystem but this process is misguided by some. Some just go posting about whatever without any description of it and surprisingly these posts do well. I don't wanna get involve in this to so i do my own job and explore good content to read to. Original content creates make this hive ecosystem a beautiful place. Love you all
I wouldn't use my image again in another post as long as I don't mention it somewhere in the post. Also, I think that using third party contents as long as giving source of them should not be a problem.
I'm gonna use this for my banana bread post.
I'm one of many that needs to see this post and I'm so glad I did. It's only wise to learn from the experience of others when they share and this is a really good advice.
Recycling post for me, only proves that as a writer you are not growing or learning enough. But I have a question though, what about recycling a post to another platform, is it acceptable?
Or just lazy.
As long as it's your content and you don't recycle it on the same platform where you can monetize it that's fine to crosspost. If you can't help but just want to repost for visibility, decline the rewards. The issue comes when you don't decline rewards for recycling.
Yes they are lazy.
Okay, I understand it better now, so if you are recycling a post on the same platform and you decline the rewards then you're safe right?
Most likely yes but it also depends on the community you are sharing your post. Declining the rewards solves most of the reposting problems.
Okay which means some communities might be cool with you not declining your reward or some communities do not accept recycling? Which is it?
I'm so sorry for bothering you with so many questions 😔.
Got no specific community in mind but if you look at the respective community page, the it's usually stated there which type of posts are fine. But the safest way is just asking the mod for that community for permission, no problem at all.
Okay, I think is better to seek for permission first. Thank you so much for help, I really appreciate it.
I'm glad you don't mind my questions 💙.
So next time, make a banana with wings. That would be something!
I am sure you have got a lovely banana.....
I hear it is very appealing.
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IMO,
you can get re-rewarded for old content if an update happens.
Like in science. You add something valuable new, link to the old and everything is clear. And this for text. IMO pictures can be used as much as wanted as long its not only the picture and 10 times a day. Like a banner.
100% the same would is ok for resharing, but hive is bad for rewards on stuff like that.
People cry fast because of whatever reasons.
" This post has to much fun, disagreement in topic" :D
I would wish we would have more memes and fun on hive. Not this "whinny" reactions.
because sharing itself has sometimes more value than content alone. Or should i say in every case?
:D
Very interesting and thoughtful. This topic just came up in a Discord chat I am in and I wanted to make sure I read your post before I really responded to it. Despite the fact that so many people seem to hate you :) I respect your insight and opinion. Thanks for sharing this as a proper post!
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The people that hate me are the people doing naughty things.
1. we are living in a bubble after all...
2.
3. > I'm not into anti-abuse anymore
By personal experience, you can try and leave it but the anti-abuse gets your soul and won't let you stay out of it (it means we care for the chain).
4. My ratio is 20/80 if your content is 80% original you can have 20% copy/paste (properly source) more than that is trying to monetize with content that isn't yours and abuse in my eyes.
5. What do you think of content that doesn't get even 1 upvote at all, in my opinion, you had your chance for a whole 7 days, and either the community didn't think of it good enough to be rewarded or you didn't do the promotion job you should have done to get it to be seen. But I know some people think this is not fair.
Not everything is discovered. This is less true these days with curation changes that encourages better behavior means curators are more desperate for good content to upvote as they are less likely to be upvoting their own content.
Never really thought about all of this, hard to say one "good" way to catch all of the freeloaders while allowing for copying older posts. Also a reason I would never want to be the one looking for these posts. (No clue about the drama, just wanted to put my 2-cents in on the reuse dilemma)
My biggest thing is effort, was there any effort in making it better and ultimately cultivating a better experience for learning or whatnot while reading?
I think it's fair to say that as one grows, new audiences develop while older "fans" slowly fall off and seek different content and newer people. Void of rewards, and the idea of asking for rewards twice, new people to your content may not see your previous posts. Or even better, you just improved a ton and felt you could reach a larger audience and explain better than the original. (But again this goes into improving enough to the point of deserving a new post and rewards)
It's impossible to ride the line between good re-use and freeloading with solid parameters but that's where I feel like things should be. Just like everything in this world, the first draft is always going to be the ugliest, due time and effort make the fruits of labor.
I know this is a bit scatterbrain, in essence, I agree with everything @revise.leo said in his comment.
Sounds exactly right and how I see things on Hive. If you repost an old post and make very little changes then expect down votes.
Nope mate, you are absolutely wrong!
If you repost an old post and make very little changes, then you can only logically expect that those who already read it simply ignore it, do not reward it and simply move on.
¿Why the heck were you going to expect that some pinhead of those who already read it or are just hunting reposts (because they have far too much useless time on their hands) was going to come and take away the "curation" incomes from all that new audience who rewarded the repost by upvoting it because they hadn't read it before, they really liked it and they thought it was valuable?
I have come across posts that I recognise as reposts because I curate in my community and read a majority of them. Most of these users who do this are just trying their luck. If it was an interesting post then at least make changes from the original and don't copy paste it.
I remember awhile back starting something I called Showcase Sunday, meant to breathe new life into old work. So a few examples I tried would be to combine several old posts into one, plus add commentary about what was happening back then, which I guess would be similar to a director's cut.
There were people that would post maybe one photo per post so I thought maybe they could showcase that talent at least once per week, show the pictures again as a group and maybe add some commentary. Same thing with artwork.
I thought folks could do some rewrites and fine tuning. I remember combining twelve episodes of one series I produced early on, reworking some of the editing and appearance, and making it all one long epic post; the whole thing in one link. I saw others writing short chapters and thought they could rework those chapters into one long post.
But instead all people did was copy/paste old stuff exactly the way it was presented the first time. No changes, nothing. Ten seconds of work, then post. Some folks were doing it right by making something new out of old work, but most just took it as a way to repost, which wasn't the goal. So I shut it down. Didn't want to be responsible for that.
I'll often use old images in new writing. Can see my thumbnails get used multiple times but the post isn't about the thumbnail. In a recent post you can see 'Nothing' and I even said that was old, but made new. I changed it up a bit. Breathed new life into something simple and the new jokes extended all the way down into the comment section.
https://peakd.com/life/@nonameslefttouse/new-nothing-some-pointless-swirly-goop-and-a-nameless-character
If one posts something once and gets little to no reaction, chances are doing it again will yield the same result so it's best to go back to the drawing board and try something new, rather than practicing what some know as the definition of insanity.
I think if I kept repeating myself and showing the same work but adding nothing new, all I'd do is annoy people coming to see something new. Wouldn't want the reputation of being repetitive. People are still free to go back and read old work, leave a comment, and upvote your response if they want to support that post or author. What's the point of a permanent store of data if what's on it is deemed useless because it's not 'new'. Old stuff is still valuable. It just can't be voted on but that doesn't matter. One can even leave a tip if they wanted.
The Simpsons and Southpark use the same art constantly, same voices, but the show is always different.
I'll just add I agree with your take. Could post about the banana. Could post about the banana peel. Could even post about the shit you took after eating the banana. But who the hell would want to see that show all over again...
In principle, I'm in alignment with that.
There are nuances, of course. I write a lot of "long content" and as part of that I realize that I periodically write about something I wrote about in the past (often YEARS in the past) although both the "old" and "new" posts will have been created from scratch.
For example, quite recently I wrote a piece about being an expat and missing certain food items... and a few days later I realize that I actually wrote something pretty similar a few years back. I didn't copy anything, and it's unlikely a plagiarism checker would even recognize the two pieces as "the same" but I probably said pretty much the same thing.
When you've been a fairly prolific writer for 25+ years, that's likely to happen.
But that's quite different from outright "recycling" old posts.
On any other website monetised via ads, affiliate links or the like, they'd be incentivised to edit and add to the original post.
To create new, supporting content that links back to the old, evergreen piece to build your authority on the topic.
But here, they're incentivised to ignore that one and copy and paste the same content into a new post to milk rewards.
Hive's 7 day reward window incentivises people to create short, throw-away content with no value just like this guy.
Sigh.
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Gonna try that banabread recipe, got some over ripe ones at home.
Whenever I recycle something (let's say a picture or resharing a video) I redo the post and I do try to add something of value. This only happens in certain celebrations that of course happen every year, like summer solstice. But in essence and words no posts are the same, it can reuse elements to illustrate but for different purpose. For me a blog is a portfolio. Last one was like a month effort and all brand new and I do not mind about the vites (of course I am grateful) but feedback is quiet and I come for the interaction. I post sparsely but steadily but also feel I made a "circle" of friends here that slowly drifted and no fault but mine I need to make new bonds again 💚
Read how this all have started with Toruk
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hive is slowly turning into reddit, powerful accounts controlling what content is acceptable and what is not it is disheartening to me.
The community decides what will get rewarded and what doesn't. Most of the community is selling Hive as fast as they get it, so they have little say on much of anything in terms of the reward pool. Those that have Hive, have the most say.
The post you are referring to when you made this comment had 27 cents on it, it doesn't take a powerful account to remove this. If my 27 cent downvote is life or death of Hive, then we have a serious problem. You crying over 27 cent downvote on someone who even admitted he plagaized isn't the end of Hive or even any measure of "turning into Reddit".
OK, I understand this and completely agree with you. But I have now another question, @themarkymark, I've been recording live performances of bands for more than twenty years, and a lot of it, when Steemit was still around, I posted on Dtube (over 100 music videos), which is problematic in one way, because the old recordings (which were less visited) are no longer even visible, or have been deleted, and when 3spek came along I continued to post my videos there. Now, I'd like to migrate all my Dtube clips to 3speak. How would that look from a content re-use point of view?
Do you have permission from the band to post? Dtube is known for not caring about copyright.
As for re-use, you have been rewarded for it so regardless if it is visible or not shouldn’t matter.
Of course, I have permission, all bands which play in the club are aware that everything is being recorded. And if they don't allow it, then it's not being recorded. Whole concerts go on YT, and individual songs on various video hosts.
Visibility or invisibility I know is irrelevant, but for me, it's more about keeping things archived somewhere, at least one song from each band. On Dtube, that's not possible.
Being able to record and being able to monetize is two different things.
You're right. But we talk about the alternative and underground scene, some bands don't care about that, some don't have anything recorded and they got their first shots. These recordings are not actually monetization but rather the promotion of unknown bands ...
I kind of see it like recording a public domain movie playing and posting it here for rewards.
So you think it's best not to publish it at all?
What if your banana post got almost no views the first time around, so you posted it again a few years later and got like 100x the rewards and views of the first time? Should that be downvoted to zero?
You wouldn’t know how well it would do the second time and already engaged in activity typically frowned upon (reposting content).
I suppose it all comes down to the fact that people can do whatever they want with their stake, be it upvote or downvote. Effectively, those with the control of the most stake will decide what is and isn't frowned upon.
For instance, 250 people might decide that a repost is worth being rewarded, and one person controlling enough stake can remove all of those rewards because of their personal views against reposting.
All that being said, it is impossible to create a perfect system because afterward, someone with an even larger stake could turn around and bring the reward back.
My argument is mostly against the idea that the community decides what is and isn't acceptable on Hive. It's more like a small counsel of whales making those decisions.
Of course, I don't have a solution myself, but it is important that we don't delude ourselves into believing that Hive is a democracy.
250 could be brand new accounts with no stake and 1 person with 15 Hive Power. There is a reason why one vote one account is not feasible.
If one person owns $1M worth of Hive and the 250 collectively own $10k, do you think the $1M should have more say?
You can get thousands of people with no investment, doesn't mean they deserve control.