Kickstarting new communities is great and all but to be honest the biggest issue right now is still user retention and finding out why people aren't sticking around rather than throwing poop at the wall until something sticks and people move here happily ever after. To have communities you need users to put in them to use it. May suggest somehow someway trying to find out the real reason people don't stay and fix that first before communities?
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People don't stay because they're not recognised. Both by curators that can give a decent vote and by the fact that the social element of Hive is a joke. People need to connect with people the movement they walk through the door.
Beechater implemented into every community as a public live chat could help. Then this needs a private chat where meaningful connections can continue. This alone would make sure people want to return TO HIVE even if their content isn't getting recognition.
In so many industries the reward isn't what people are providing. It's what they're receiving. Only a small amount of users are ever going to be content creators (even smaller amount will be good) the rest just want to consume and connect.
Hive just doesn't do that well. At all!
Only die hards are OK with discord as a side app for communications. Majority would see that as a reason to realise that this platform is missing the crucial things for them to switch over from mainstream.
This initiative is hopeless. Even by his own words @acidyo says clearly that community owners don't see his dream. So then change man. You're asking people to be a free workforce in order to save a broken system.
What type of user experience is that!
BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE.
The platform has many flaws and many clicks yes, these clicks result from years of engagement together, in other words, form your click, it takes time...like a lot of it, Something one only comes to understand years down the road. The key is to socialize and engage like on the various engagement contests around the platform. If there is nothing of your taste, then create it!
I know not everyone is meant to be content creators and are better consumers. This is essentially your blank canvas to make it what you want.
I tried to connect with newbies by commenting on their posts and sharing some of their work and most of them can't be bothered to reply. So fail #1 on their part. There are greeters, @brittandjosie are excellent in that department. I'm mostly quiet on the blockchain but I watch who does what. When I hear complaints of no attention and hard to earn, I issue contests to try to give back to the more entry level users, who participates? higher level users. Maybe they do well because they participate in things in one form or another. In other words, engage.
I understand Hive is the wild wild west and life ain't easy in them darn hills so cheer up and come visit my contest where there are other links to other engagement posts where lots of nice people hang out. Come make some friends and be noticed.
Sorry @acidyo not trying to spam your page with my contest, just trying to help a brother out.
Also it's good that we talk about these things out loud and fix it together. We all have a different vision and experience.
The change is HIVE NEEDS TO DO SOCIAL without patchwork. I can't be that change because that needs to be coded into the system by those that can code. I often get the code to my building incorrect!
You asked why Hive can't retain users so then that's your answer, which you actually deflected of as a non-issue. No offense to you, but that's part of the problem. Not enough people demanding it in order for the coders to make this web_3.0 actually superior.
Like imagine a new university trying to poach students from a big time university but then telling them "you'll need to bring your own library of knowledge or use the one down the road.."
I think your commitment is admirable btw, that's a thing which Hive CAN celebrate but the glue that keep users connected and ON HIVE is crucial or else it's an uphill battle.
I'm not trying to dismiss a problem, it's even funny that you suggest that since I'm the one that brought up talking about these issues before going to town on communities.
Code-wise I know nothing. Social wise, probably not that much more but slightly. I see there are problems, perhaps I just see them differently then you do as well. We all have different perspectives and that's why it's good to talk about it. We can't change everything as individuals and that's overwhelming at times but you can also make the best of what you have available and have fun with it. Perspective is still a choice.
We have a series of archived great users how to posts that just went and died into nothingness. If there was a way to have them all pinned in some easy to access hive for newcomers section. There...that's a community you should support if anyone would create. There better suited then myself writing hive-how-to out there as we speak. The material is there, people have to look for it or ask for help or direction.
That's the difference.
I'm only focused on the fundamentals. If the platform lacks those vital tools which support growth and retention then it's like cutting an artery and putting a bandaid on it.
I get what you are saying. Just keep in mind sometimes coders also forget the social aspects just like we the more social ones forget the coding aspects. Nobody is good at everything, we just need to come together and find a way because this place has great potential, lets not let it go to waste.
Yeah completely agree. That's why I see this as two separate evolution processes. The community is amazing. THE REAL VALUE HERE.
The development then is lacking and not catering to the needs of the collectives. Which is why I believe people need to make more noise.
See, recently there was an "askHive" of what was missing here. That post got a lot of suggestions and the two that got repeated was the same two I hold vital. A mobile app that brings traffic and ways for Hive to retain that traffic (social tools.)
YET...
What happened?
NOTHING.
Even certain "whales" said, "hey Hiveans we heard you." but hey those whales make their bread regardless. If there were follow ups and an actual roadmap then things could move efficiently.
Anyway I admire your mindset.
You're the very type that's keeping this alive so well done for what you do here and what your committed to do for others to improve their experience on Hive.
No worries, was caught off guard as I couldn't see all the comments on hive.blog but noticed the amount of them just now. Probably cause I muted teknow some time ago due to constant pessimism. Like yes, we get it, there are still issues, account creation is still a bit flaky some times, learning curve is still a bit steep depending on which dapp you start off with and people seem to get tired over time, with that I mean curators. Seems there's a need for constant fresh blood to be incentivized to go out and look for genuine new users to curate that don't start off on communities directly. On top of it all there is so much abuse and plag attempts that just taint it for newcomers chances of being seen and given the benefit of the doubt and adding so much extra work to curators to do background checks before they curate them. It's a lot to think about and I keep wondering how it can be improved - and don't get me wrong, I'm one of those who usually thinks "vote first - check later", as I'm not someone who cares about maximizing rewards or don't want to risk unvoting/downvoting what we've voted up. There's hivewatchers and others getting paid to make sure they track them down so it shouldn't always be on the curators to check that a post and account are legit but then there's also the "if you feed them and they see they can get away with some rewards here and there before they are caught they will keep trying and multiplying".
Anyway, I think communities will be a nice defense against this but the biggest issue right now is lack of consumption and engagement. It's like we've built this amazing platform that works well and can scale well but too few are daring to enter to try it out and many I've invited literally tell me I must be joking cause it sounds too good to be true considering all advantages we have here so they don't bother trying.
But yeah, be my guest. Will have to read all this in the morning though as it's getting late here and I just did a voting round of the communities.
Well I wont go into to many details since I left about a dozen and a half books across your page. I'm sure it must have been confusing with a muted user in the debate! More less what I was eluding to, there are flaws but many aspects are not considered because we are too focused on our own individual vison rather than try to see things from someone else's perspective...like an iceberg. There is a lot of moving parts.
However I think the marketing is going in the wrong direction as far as consumption, you can find details in the mess below if you dare. 😂😂 Right now everybody wants to write, those are the ones who join the platform. The consumers are those we share it to on other media. That's where marketing and devs should focus on. indirect traffic, people that are here and don't even know it...reading our content. Also reducing the need to scale since only those who wish to publish are here, those who wish to read only have a bridge to what they consider normal. Crypto is niche, there is a whole untapped world of consumers glues to their phones 24/7out there for free. Bridge that gap and let people slowly dip their toe in. Once they realize they have been using it unknowingly for months just reading cool content, they might take the plunge...try before you buy sorta deal.
Thanks for all you do around the platform! I know you care. also unrelated I wanted steps to delegate to ocdb (that's your project right?)since i'm still kinda crypto dumb and I don't know how without a link or how to undelegated later. If you could help me out with that it would be great. (I can just see you face palming right now! 😂)
Sorry, still didn't get around to read through this post haha, doesn't help that much of the discussion doesn't seem to be about what I asked to begin with. xD Will check soon.
About @ocdb, just delegating to it (easiest to do is through peakd.com in the wallet there) will get you on the list after 1 payout and then daily rewards in liquid hive straight after: https://thegoodwhales.io/delegators.html
ps. to show up on the list you have to delegate at least 250hp to prevent spam, but everyone gets daily rewards as long as it's not under 0.001 hive.
I'll try again tomorrow to read through these, the new expansion release of WoW has been keeping me busy lately I have to admit. :p
ok, maybe I'm trying to delegate to something I'm not sure about now! I'm glad I asked. What is it that you run like ocd that just helps random users with unrecognized good content that curators wrangle up, that's what I'm looking to delegate to, not a subscription bot of some sort. I'm confused at all the payout and spam bla bla bla now?
Anyways no worries about reading all that crap or not. It was never intended to happen, the convo got carried away with others, I get it. Sorry for that. However it could be relevant to some point taking strain off curation teams with other measures in place for taking care of oneself and missed opportunities for the platform. I just didn't know people were not using communities until you pointed it out.
So true dear and this would be an excellent entry for the contest by @jaynie aboitvyour thought on hive. I am gonaa see what contests you have running now. Thanks for the compliment and mention I appreciate it.
Haha, I should have, this was suppose to be a short comment! lol I didn't know it would snowball mad. You are welcome, you do a lot around here. It's not fair to say nobody is doing it when some like you are so dedicated to it.
@teknow i read no fun for you as a user, we don’t need negativity we need builders. I found some truth in what you wrote but I want to thank you for writing it and I hope it will change
LOL sorry.
If you did see my points though I partly succeeded.
The rest then, well I will work on it.
I respect your opinion and now ladybug has proven to be well opinionated also.
A thought: It seems the ladies of Hive are actually leading the way on the community front. You, @jaynie @ladybug146 and many others are running amazing initiatives which are adding so much rich content. All very organic and sustainable.
So maybe the coders need to do their part and improve the slab. That's my only gripe with Hive. If this had all the bits. I would be committed to it with more than just opinion and have no reservations in the long game. It's not hard at all to build networks. I refuse to build that partly on DISCORD though!
For me building a network and cosi g is abracadabra so I need to be trusting that the devs do the job that need to be down and as in real life there are so many opinions its hard to get all satisfied, but for me being here is a way of life , ofcourse I want hive to rocket to the moon but it’s more I get here than on other socials I like. In these trying times I am liking for people that will look to the future with me, who understand that now there is no way to communicate as much is I do without discord to be the hiver I am right now. Would it be good for Hive to have that internally well yes maybe but it isn’t here yet it’s adjoined to the hip and that’s perfectly fine for me. Do we nee change YES but a toddler needs to learn to walk and talk hive is only 8 months so let’s be posting commenting and engagement and come up with solutions or if that is not enough just leave there is so much available! This is for all reading this not for you personally but if you fit the shoe 👞 jahahah
I get your perspective. It's what I refer to as "die hards." You will go down with the ship because all your belongings are on said ship. Now the ship isn't going down and your commitment is not at all a bad thing. The only point of this comment is that the masses aren't like you. They pick something up, and on a whim discard it.
So traffic retention and conversion into active users is crucial.
Which is why the big tech platforms have that down to a hypnotic science!
Or they just buy out any potential competitor.
So then since these new systems depend on the money players. Catering to them is also very important. They too don't see a thing as a die-hard user does. They only view things objectively. So then there's fundamentals that make their decision easier.
IMO, crypto is still gambling but sustainability and then 'market share potential' are things which can be determined by simple analytics. So anyone putting up a large stake will only do that if the thing has potential. If it's got demand and can create growth. Hive has great communities.. but really outsiders don't even know. Then when a person researches, it's evident that the talk of the town is that even those committed communities are shedding users.
So then my logic-driven mind looks for the point of failure.
Then that giant hole in the hull needs fixing.
I wonder how many active Hive users are on DISCORD actually.
I would think that even some that left Hive/Steemit would stay connected to their contacts on Discord. So isn't that a red flag to you? Hive actually working for a platform not even part of the Hive system. WTH!
There is some truth in the thing you write but the alternative isn’t great either and I like the fact it’s the platform it’s become and i stay for my friends and myself ! I make a library of life and make some pennies along the way, that a social platform needs another doesn’t bother me that much now maybe in the longrun but what would be your solution as I said I am not a coder
I wouldn't call it broken.
I don't think it's broken either but some people do and it's nice to know how people feel about stuff, I want people to do well and would help anyone who ask reasonably besides the standard "upvote my stuff cause I posted it"...I'm sure many here feel the same way.
I hear you. I just think there's a lack of consumers combined with a push to always onboard new creators. So that's a recipe for disaster. People want votes. Consumers do the voting. Some folks only want big votes and think the place is broken if they don't get them. That's ridiculous. Doesn't matter what size the account is. That's still only one consumer. They can't possibly get around to thousands of posts in a day. I know I can't.
Most of the issues people face are due to the lack of consumers. What's interesting is often some of the folks complaining don't go out and vote much or engage. But at the same time, it's really hard to play both roles.
See you agree: consumers.
Also I commit to commenting here and you can see I leave lengthy engagement comments relevant to the users content. Often they respond with appreciation because it's rare to them.
Sometimes I critique and people get offended and sensitive. That's ok. If I speak falsehoods then I welcome a decent rebuttal. It too generates engagement, after all.
I'm not the sensitive type. Would you believe I just spent the last fifteen minutes on the shitter?
Lol no I meant in general some people get sensitive if a person is to critical of flaws here.
Btw the notifications are broken. Why did they change it to highlight the comment that got the reply and not the actual reply?
@peakd is this a front-end thing or API issue?
It makes a conversation confusing!
Yes I definitely understand your stance, I see the same on just about every word.
It's definitely hard to play both roles some can some can't. That's the beauty of it, you do what you want and you get what you put in. It's an attention economy and it's competitive. Not every actor gets cast in a movie just cause their an actor and so on...same concept. Consumers are vital and right now it's all sheriffs and no bandits.
I share my nonsense on my personal facebook page or randomly in private conversations that pop up even year old posts...I share it like it's a cheap prostitute at last call at the bar. The content is useful to them and they want to support, so many external viewers that never get to vote or comment everyone seems to forget about...outsider lives matter too! People need to think bigger than just the platform. Sharing our content where there already eyeballs to see...This is just a publishing platform. There is more to it then click post and walking away. It's up to each and everyone of us to bring our content to the consumer and the more people do that, more will encounter hive and get curious. It's marketing for dummies.
If it's not interesting for people outside of hive, it may not be interesting for hive either...just sayin
Yeah. I don't share posts like this to the outside. Some of that more creative shit I do though definitely gets passed around.
Did you see that post? It's about tying things together. Streamlining the consumer experience.
This world right now is going in many directions at once and everyone, including myself, needs to be patient with a few things.
I'll become frustrated if I find myself experiencing the same concerns in six months.
Oh yeah, I saw that one and I still read it again, I agree with a lot of it and I know you and I have both preaching about that concept for years. Every once in a while just blow the dust off see if it will work this year!
some of my stuff is more platform oriented so that stays here, it's probably for the best it can be a little demented...lol. My travel and trail posts, that gets quite handy to just post links instead of trying to explain it 1000 times every time someone asks because everyone knows I'm a hiker and I know where to find nice spots.
I detached myself from my outcome here so I don't get too frustrated. Post when I want don't when I don't feel like it. That being said, also a good way to gage what type of users you want, full time? casual? anything will do? Frustrated users tend to go away... it doesn't exactly spell out user retention.
A sprained ankle then.
Or some sepsis going unchecked.
Seriously though.
Imo, had steemit had the ability for user retention there would be no need for all this patchwork that Hive now needs as a must in order to stop the leakage.
I know you've got some good ideas and respect your input but I've seen you yourself say that it's just pointless to onboard to what's currently here.
Chat + superior mobile experience is my two vitals. Without that all I see is fragmentation and only die hards accept that.
If that's what Hive wants to cater to then OK. Which, imo, is why devs don't really go ham. They like it niche. Community however pretends the masses want to come here. When, that's actually conditional.
Can it do what mainstream does and more?
Answer: No.
Does it have enough content to induce gratification overload to make me go there and stay hypnotised, drooling with delight, despite Hive lacking the other things mainstream does for me?
Answer: No, sorry I bothered you.
I know you believe that too because again I agree with your point that CONSUMERS OF CONTENT aren't catered to here and if they were here in large numbers, they would be a source of revenue.
The "paying customer" after all is why all social platforms came into existence. One way or another our activity generates the money. However, content didn't come into existence on the internet from the get go. There was once a time when putting yourself online was a negative. So it was once all that started existing that Big Tech pounced like a vulture.
This here Hive (steemit) attempted it in reverse. Money before the content. Worse: Platform without completeness.
To me that's the broken.
It's got a few zits, sure.
Steemit days retention issues stem from the onboarding practice of attracting new members with a subtle promise of getting paid. Nobody told them it would be like Youtube, where you have to grind to build a following of consistent supporters. These amateurs showed up expecting to earn the big bucks with a Facebook like status message. Then said the place was broken when nobody wanted to buy their ridiculous pamphlets with upvotes.
In reality, creating content is a tough gig. Most fail. Look at Youtube. One cannot simply make a video and go viral. So people leaving because they failed as content creators is normal. It's the consumers who always stick around. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands more will fail on Youtube, but that doesn't stop people from watching videos.
We just need to shift the focus to attracting consumers. There's plenty here for them, including rewards. But if they come here expecting to earn the big bucks for leaving comments, they will be disappointed. Still, earning a nickel for leaving a comment is far more than all Youtube consumers earned in the past decade. Consumers also earn consumer rewards. They can also have their money back if they purchase stake and decide this isn't for them. These are easy selling points.
Since they're such easy selling points, I tend to glare at some of these creators here with big outside followings. You know the type. The one's with hundreds of thousands of followers outside the platform, but no comments under their posts here.
I don't blame the platform. As I said here I only try to onboard consumers interested in my product now. Nothing else. And if these folks wit large followings did that, they'd be offering their consumers a great deal as well as setting themselves up with a solid revenue stream. It's an intriguing business model and incredibly disruptive to the entertainment industry when the full potential is realized.
It is a very important point to attract CONSUMERS who only want to consume content, without the false illusion or motivated by receiving some money in return.
That is a problem, many come to this type of platform with the sole intention of making money, others with seeking more freedom of expression which they do not get on Facebook or YouTube.
I consume very specific content, such as topics that talk about life, thoughts, things like that, it hurts that in my original language (Spanish) there is not much of that, but in the end I am a consumer.
That is lacking here, but that motivation is in some cases backed by money.
Perhaps the success of the platform comes when people see SHARING as their first motivation and finally being rewarded if their work really deserves it.
Commitment and desire to do things well, I believe that together we can turn this around and that errors and failures have a solution.
The fact remains though, they do earn. They can play games, browse content, upvote, engage. All of this pays. Power consumers can earn enough for a new device to browse on if they try hard enough. And one cannot fail as a consumer here.
Have you ever watched a livestream on Youtube or elsewhere and notice all that consumer money pouring in? 30% of that goes to Youtube. Consumers love to spend money and here they actually get a return on that investment. This platform needs consumers and creators who actually understand the business model.
Every point of view is valid.
The point is that we must have other motivations, not just money.
Yes, of course, money is important to advance, and all that that entails.
But it should not be the only motivation.
See that's all true and completely relevant to the state of Hive. I agree with you completely and see minds like yours as vital to the road ahead.
That's why I believe money/rewards (and promise of) before content was what set this all up for failure. For what could people stick around for?
So then the fundamental flaws that exist right now is Hive punishes low level votes. Hive doesn't provide consumer connectivity ON HIVE. It also has a ridiculous system of CURATORS getting more than the actual content creators.
WTF!?
Blind trail voters over actual creators?
So hey I'm all for community love parades of "make best use of what you have" but fundamentals that are broken going unchecked is an issue that keeps on bleeding out.
Even @acidyo makes the point that this initiative is manageable now. However if millions of users come, then one person can't manage it. It's people that keep it going. The network effect.
But then... it's either:
the platform sustains it / or kills it.
I think @acidyo going to be pissed this comment section got derailed. LOL!
Lol Engagement!
And solid points.
He muted me long ago though.
I didn't appreciate his love.
I think you are putting words in my mouth, I never said onboarding was a moot point, I said we need more of it. This comprehension issue or putting words in my mouth is getting old real fast.
The platform shouldn't be advertised as a cash cow and that's why it failed with the s-word. People got attracted here for the wrong reasons and that's why many didn't stay cause they weren't making 1k a day shitposting flashy pop ups that will make your eyes bleed . The platform is young it has a few sharp edges that can be smoothened , yes, I have always agreed with that, we have a long way to go and it's not going to happen yesterday. Hive needs people of hive to produce content that is consumable outside of hive and share it to an audience of their own in some shape or form rather than be entirely focused on onboarding. With it's many flaws, people still under-use what is already available. This can be a powerful tool if we use actually use it right... Fix the bugs as we go along.
I chose to see it as a self publishing tool and not an audience, although still appreciate the fact that I can build one here too...the rest is up to me where it goes beyond the platform. More need to think that way. Make sense socially? no?
This place may not make everyone and their grannies rush over doesn't mean it can't be used outside of the platform, where ads for outsiders would come in handy to cash in on those who might be underwhelmed in using the platform daily but might come across a nice article or two his friend posted in a private message that is still viewership.
I agree private chat would be vital for sure and help with usability and socializing.
At the end of the day, your content is your product and subject to market demand and some people around here expect to fill shelves and keep the doors to the store locked and expect stuff to fly off the shelves.
A movie producer doesn't fill seats to a theater cause he made a movie...He has to advertise it. That is personal responsibility not the blockchain's fault.
Fiery one!
Ain't no ladybug. You're a scorpion!
Lol I really like your expressive and outspokenness manner though. Seriously this conversation is only a sliver of people here but it's intense, passionate and robust.
Conversations like this are actually attractive to outsiders and live as value long after the post is forgotten. I remember on steemit early days I would get consumed in past posts that involved lots of committed individuals that had disagreements. A newbie really gets a feel for the network by posts like that.
It also indirectly sells the "community" element and tells the viewer that people here believe in the product. The money thing I see as secondary. Opportunity for that has many angles. Like you said, good promoters know how to get their product to market.
The network effect however is the core issue. Steemit and Hive just haven't mastered that. I could say why, but then you already know, because I've already made that point.
Take care ladybug!
Sometimes my alter ego shadybug comes out to play. I am opinionated and my real job is making it work with a bunch of dudes who think I shouldn't be there in the oilfield. I have learned when to be a fly on the wall or come out guns-a-blazin...I think it was just my calling to be strong willed! I'm a Sagittarius, the most fiery sign in the zodiac.
I agree 100% with what you said, I used to be glued to those posts back in the day, it's probably what got me addicted to this place, I got fat on all the popcorn. I live for the productive drama that went on like this where it doesn't resort to name calling or immaturities.
Like you said, that's when we seemed to find direction rather then just drift to wherever we drift to. I think it makes newbies want to learn about the platform to know what we are talking about and benefits them by learning how to work it. We are the old school and we hustled for a long time. Sometimes people expect instant results and it just doesn't work that way.
To an outside investor, it looks like discussions are made and directions are taken based on community consensus as they state is the heart of the project. Like you said, a community that cares of the outcome of the platform even if we can't all get along. I Think that's the point in community led...we all want something, we can't all have what we want.
It's not even about getting hive to market to go fully mainstream. I think the content consumers everyone cries about will never join the platform because crypto and writing isn't their thing. Doesn't mean they don't like the content. Hive devs need to find a way to tap that value because that's where it is. I understand devs have a vision, large investors want token value, the socialites want usability, imagine that in one great package. If it doesn't match up with what consumers want, there will not be consumers and that affects token value.
People do not stay, as perhaps they are not supported and are going to try their luck elsewhere.
If there are flaws in their strategy or expectations to begin with, it will not work else where no matter where they go. If they can thrive elsewhere, then kudos to them, I wish every one the best and success in the end no matter where it is.