Hive Chess Tournaments Scoring & Reward System [eng/срп] Систем бодовања и награђивања на шаховским Хајв турнирима

[lighteye]

^{Јесам ли ја овог јадника звекнуо забадава?}

In a previous text titled “Reverse Stafford as an Excuse” I have made a suggestion to our @chessbrotherspro on the new Hive Chess Tournaments Scoring and Rewarding System. Now, I would like to explain that proposal in a little more detail and put it up for public discussion.

Today I will present my suggestion on the example of the first season of Chess Brothers League tournaments, since they are still searching for the best format of their tournaments. I will also try to answer to the first reactions sent to the idea. One of the organizers, @eniolw had a positive feedback:

“Very interesting suggestions! Thanks for taking your time to think about this and share them. The only thing is, it would have been great to have them before launching the announcement post. I talked to my partners about this, although they are and will be out of town a bit busy these days. About the points scored, remember that it is not unlikely that someone will miss at least one tournament, so players from 11th position down will not get 8 points all of them at the end. Otherwise, the scoring system and prize distribution plan you propose are interesting. I wonder if @StayOutOfTheRZ and @SchamanGerbert have used that scoring system before.”

I am glad I didn’t write the text in vain, and I would like to state my case in a bit different way. I presume that any organizer of the tournament would want to gather as many people as possible. The key for more people would be stimulating them to participate and motivating them to come back every round. How will we do it?

Stimulating & Motivating

Chess is truly a beautiful game, but if you want only to enjoy it, then you don’t really need Hive. You can do it on lichess.org or anywhere else without Hive registration, rules, joining communities and other hassles. Stimulation in my system is done through cryptocurrency for all participants. Yes, the rewards are small in the beginning, but remember – every beginning is hard. It takes time to gain influence and more people for better rewards. But the people will come if there is a prospect for them to earn something alongside enjoying the game.

As for the motivation… With the current rewarding system, only the strongest players are motivated to continue playing all rounds hoping for a reward. The lower ranked players don’t even have a simple competitive motive of measuring their progress. See for example the rankings of an excellent Hivechess Tournament hosted by our @stayoutoftherz:

У претходном тексту под насловом „Обрнути Стафорд као изговор“ изнео сам предлог нашим @chessbrotherspro о новом систему награђивања на шаховским Хајв турнирима. Сад бих тај предлог мало детаљније образложио и ставио га на јавну расправу.

Данас ћу свој предлог представити на примеру прве сезоне турнира Лиге шаховске браће пошто они још увек трагају за најбољим форматом својих турнира. Покушаћу и да одговорим на прве реакције које је изазвала ова идеја. Један од организатора, @eniolw, имао је позитивну реакцију:

„Веома занимљиви предлози! Хвала вам што сте одвојили време да размислите о овоме и поделите их. Једина ствар је да би било сјајно имати их пре објављивања објаве. Разговарао сам са својим партнерима о овоме, иако су ових дана и биће ван града помало запослени. Што се тиче освојених бодова, имајте на уму да није мала вероватноћа да ће неко пропустити бар један турнир, па играчи са 11. позиције надоле неће добити свих 8 бодова на крају. Иначе, систем бодовања и план расподеле награда које предлажете су занимљиви. Питам се да ли су @StayOutOfTheRZ и @SchamanGerbert већ користили тај систем бодовања.“

Драго ми је што нисам узалуд написао текст и желео бих да свој предлог изнесем на мало другачији начин. Претпостављам да би сваки организатор турнира желео да окупи што више људи. Кључ за окупљање јесте стимулисање учешћа и мотивација за повратак у свако ново коло. Како ћемо то учинити?

Стимулисање и мотивисање

Шах је заиста лепа игра, али ако желите само да уживате у томе, онда вам Хајв не треба. Можете то чинити на lichess.org или било где другде без регистрације, правила, придруживања заједницама и друге гњаваже. Стимулација у мом систему се врши додељивањем криптовалуте свим учесницима. Да, награде су у почетку мале, али запамтите – сваки почетак је тежак. Потребно је време да се стекне утицај и окупи више људи за боље награде. Али људи ће доћи ако постоји могућност да уз уживање у игри нешто и зараде.

Што се мотивације тиче… Тренутним системом награђивања, само најјачи играчи су мотивисани да наставе игру у сваком колу надајући се награди. Играчи нижег ранга немају ни једноставан такмичарски мотив да измере свој напредак. Погледајте, на пример, ранг листу одличног шаховског Хајв турнира чији је домаћин наш @stayoutoftherz:

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Out of 30 participants, the lower half have no motive to participate at all. They all have 0 points and have no orientation as to whether they had any progress in the tournament compared to the previous season, or compared to the opponents from this season. With my scoring system, there would be competitive motivation even for the weakest in chess tournament participants. Let’s now see at what the table of the first season of Chess Brothers Tournament would look like if the points were calculated according to my system:

Од 30 учесника, доња половина уопште нема мотива да учествује. Сви имају 0 поена и немају никакву оријентацију јесу ли на турниру напредовали у односу на претходну сезону, или у односу на противнике из ове сезоне. С мојим системом бодовања, постојала би такмичарска мотивација и за шаховски најслабије учеснике. Погледајмо сад како би изгледала табела првог турнира шаховске браће да су поени обрачунавани по мом систему:

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Rnk	Lichess	Hive	ELO	Tourn.	R1	R2	R3	R4	Points
1	blackswan21	@tungphong	2473	4	21	24	30	33	108
2	tony1294	@tony1294	2302	4	16	21	27	30	94
3	stayoutoftherz	@stayoutoftherz	2060	4	10	20	22	22	74
4	FCastro17	@fjcr	2060	4	8	17	25	24	74
5	eniolw	@eniolw	2430	3	-	16	21	32	69
6	ZGM_Samostically	@samostically	2246	3	-	23	11	27	61
7	rosmarly	@rosmarly	2051	4	15	19	24	2	60
8	zavalaorlan	@orlanzavala	2335	2	-	-	28	25	53
9	sammy42069	-	1578	3	-	15	17	21	53
10	pamboy27	@Pamboy27	2147	2	-	-	23	26	49
11	rodrook	@rodrook	1479	4	6	10	13	17	46
12	lighteye	@lighteye	1746	4	7	8	16	15	46
13	chrissdulceyxd	-	2209	2	18	-	26	-	44
14	Spago	-	2486	1	-	-	-	34	34
15	Ebingo	@Ebingo	1403	4	4	9	14	6	33
16	MindYourPlays	-	2095	1	-	-	-	31	31
17	ajedrezclub2t	@rafaelaquino	1768	2	-	11	19	-	30
18	CALTchess	-	2340	1	-	-	29	-	29
19	AntonyWasHere	-	2208	2	17	-	12	-	29
20	emichessmaster	@emic	2117	1	-	-	-	29	29
21	Vad_im	-	2174	1	-	-	-	28	28
22	MattRMahan	-	1471	3	-	5	8	13	26
23	agreste	@agreste	1755	2	12	-	-	14	26
24	madykrise	-	1341	3	-	6	9	9	24
25	alim_124	-	2048	1	-	-	-	23	23
26	l1nux	@eenriquerivas	2436	1	-	22	-	-	22
27	Pavarotty	@lucianosky	2347	2	20	-	-	1	21
28	Emiliano120	-	1262	2	-	-	10	10	20
29	PilotoX	-	2197	1	-	-	20	-	20
30	Chacald	-	1473	1	-	-	-	20	20
31	morronga	-	2141	1	19	-	-	-	19
32	pereu4uwatch	-	2063	1	-	-	-	19	19
33	PerrySadler	-	1803	1	-	18	-	-	18
34	Jonbellionfan	-	2075	1	-	-	-	18	18
35	JMPC81	-	2118	1	-	-	18	-	18
36	DiegoFitness92	@diegofitness92	1928	3	11	3	3	-	17
37	Lastholy	-	1688	1	-	-	-	16	16
38	Cincinnati_cobra99	-	1551	1	-	-	15	-	15
39	leocamaron	-	2201	1	14	-	-	-	14
40	Howarth	-	1683	1	-	14	-	-	14
41	Tyrionlanister	-	2294	1	13	-	-	-	13
42	wiwu200	-	2170	1	-	13	-	-	13
43	rezamirshafiee	-	2177	1	-	-	-	12	12
44	DACHA2	-	1900	1	-	12	-	-	12
45	DANNY9192sj	-	1869	1	-	-	-	11	11
46	Maximiliano2013	-	967	2	-	-	7	3	10
47	vasigo	@vasigo	979	2	-	4	-	5	9
48	SakakibaraKun	-	2005	1	9	-	-	-	9
49	cesaroficial	-	1690	1	-	-	-	8	8
50	HerbyW	@schamangerbert	1750	1	-	7	-	-	7
51	mini10201	-	1994	1	-	-	-	7	7
52	walterIred	-	2090	2	-	1	5	-	6
53	karik10	-	1478	1	-	-	6	-	6
54	Sa9r1	-	2010	1	5	-	-	-	5
55	jahirnavarro02	-	2009	1	-	-	4	-	4
56	Eliana12	-	1854	1	-	-	-	4	4
57	Juan_95	-	1637	1	3	-	-	-	3
58	APOLOIII	-	1660	1	-	-	2	-	2
59	SufrimientoPerpetuo	-	1816	1	2	-	-	-	2
60	Edixonluna1987	-	2076	1	-	2	-	-	2
61	NicolaNigro	-	2114	1	1	-	-	-	1
62	chukyhipico	-	2101	1	-	-	1	-	1

! Due to the disastrous treatment of the tables on Hive, you will get the best view of this ranking through the PeakD interface.

! Услед катастрофалног третмана табела на Хајву, најбољи поглед на ово рангирање добићете преко ПеакД интерфејса.

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It is very easy to form an Excel spreadsheet for this calculation. Of the 62 participants in this open tournament, 20 of them were registered on Hive, and potentially, according to my system, could count on a prize. The members of Hive won a total of 928 points, and the liquid part of the reward was 14.4 HBD. When we divide 14.4 by 928, we get the value of one point in the tournament – that value is 0.016 HBD. Now we multiply the points of each participant by this value, and we get a reward for each participant in accordance with the achieved result:

Врло је лако формирати Ексел табелу за овај обрачун. Од 62 учесника на овом отвореном турниру, њих 20 је било пријављено на Хајв, и потенцијално би према мом систему, могло да рачуна на награду. Чланови Хајва укупно су освојили 928 поена, а ликвидни део награде износио је 14,4 ХБД. Кад 14,4 поделимо са 928, добијамо вредност једног поена на турниру – та вредност је 0,016 ХБД. Сад поене сваког учесника помножимо овом вредношћу, и добијамо награду за сваког учесника у складу с постигнутим резултатом:

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Rnk	Lichess	Hive	ELO	Tourn.	R1	R2	R3	R4	Points	Rew. HBD
1	blackswan21	@tungphong	2473	4	21	24	30	33	108	1,676
2	tony1294	@tony1294	2302	4	16	21	27	30	94	1,459
3	stayoutoftherz	@stayoutoftherz	2060	4	10	20	22	22	74	1,148
4	FCastro17	@fjcr	2060	4	8	17	25	24	74	1,148
5	eniolw	@eniolw	2430	3	-	16	21	32	69	1,071
6	ZGM_Samostically	@samostically	2246	3	-	23	11	27	61	0,947
7	rosmarly	@rosmarly	2051	4	15	19	24	2	60	0,931
8	zavalaorlan	@orlanzavala	2335	2	-	-	28	25	53	0,822
9	pamboy27	@Pamboy27	2147	2	-	-	23	26	49	0,760
10	rodrook	@rodrook	1479	4	6	10	13	17	46	0,714
11	lighteye	@lighteye	1746	4	7	8	16	15	46	0,714
12	Ebingo	@Ebingo	1403	4	4	9	14	6	33	0,512
13	ajedrezclub2t	@rafaelaquino	1768	2	-	11	19	-	30	0,466
14	emichessmaster	@emic	2117	1	-	-	-	29	29	0,450
15	agreste	@agreste	1755	2	12	-	-	14	26	0,403
16	l1nux	@eenriquerivas	2436	1	-	22	-	-	22	0,341
17	Pavarotty	@lucianosky	2347	2	20	-	-	1	21	0,326
18	DiegoFitness92	@diegofitness92	1928	3	11	3	3	-	17	0,264
19	vasigo	@vasigo	979	2	-	4	-	5	9	0,140
20	HerbyW	@schamangerbert	1750	1	-	7	-	-	7	0,109

! Due to the disastrous treatment of the tables on Hive, you will get the best view of this ranking through the PeakD interface.

! Услед катастрофалног третмана табела на Хајву, најбољи поглед на ово рангирање добићете преко ПеакД интерфејса.

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In this way, everyone would be stimulated and motivated to participate in every round of the tournament, and more importantly, people would have a reason to join our Hive platform and make their prizes bigger with their own votes. Along the way, they will learn what decentralized platforms and cryptocurrencies are, which is an invaluable gain.

Let’s look at the and the comment of our @SchamanGerbert:

“• The goal of the points is to get the next Chess King: And there is only one! So all other players are welcome to play but they will not be Chess King. And there is quite a fight about this position…
• The payouts from my tournaments are equally distributed to all players, so it is the most fair system in the world, especially for the weaker players. This is the best way to get them to the boards.
• Everyone can make a new format, nothing is fixed in the blockchain.”

A short comment on the first point: In my system you also get a Chess King, just no one is deprived of hope that he can stage a miracle! And even those who are left without hope for the Big Crown, will have a competitive motive to continue participating until the end of the tournament.

To the second point: It is a really great system, completely in the spirit of the Hive community, and I hope that you will keep that system as unique in the future.

On the third point: Indeed, if my suggestions do not come to fruition, maybe @the-real-betman, a true chess addict will organize his own chess tournament :)

На овај начин сви би били стимулисани и мотивисани да учествују у сваком колу турнира, а што је још важније, људи би имали разлог да се прикључе нашој Хајв платформи и својим гласовима учине награде већим. Успут ће научити шта су децентрализоване платформе и криптовалуте, што је непроцењив добитак.

Погледајмо на крају и коментар нашег @SchamanGerbert:

„• Циљ бодова је да добијемо новог шаховског краља: А такав је само један! Дакле, сви други играчи су добродошли да играју, али они неће бити краљ шаха. И око ове позиције води се велика борба…
• Исплате са мојих турнира су равномерно распоређене на све играче, тако да је то најправеднији систем на свету, посебно за слабије играче. Ово је најбољи начин да их довучете на плочу.
• Свако може да направи нови формат, ништа није фиксирано у блокчеину.“

Кратак коментар на прву тачку: И у мом систему се добија шаховски краљ, само се ником не одузима нада да може направити чудо! А чак и они који остану без наде за круну, имаће такмичарски мотив да наставе учешће до краја турнира.

На другу тачку: То је заиста одличан систем, потпуно у духу заједнице на Хајву и ја се надам да ћеш тај систем и убудуће задржати као јединствен.

На трећу тачку: Заиста, ако моји предлози не наиђу на примену, можда ће @the-real-betman, истински шаховски зависник организовати сопствени шаховски турнир :)

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* * *

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Comments

[stayoutoftherz]

Dear @lighteye!
I had missed your inital suggestion post, otherwise I would have commented as well.
I agree with your criticism, that if we have one league only both for 2300+ players and players with a 1000 rating, focusing with the prices only on the top is not ideal.
Therefore I tried from the beginning to more incentivize participation (50% of the price is not paid out according to performance, maybe too much).
And therefore it is also kind of unfair that you presenting the ranking after 4 rounds as bad example, because this shows only half of the truth in my point distribution system. E.g. the payouts from S7 were like this:

Your proposal is very interesting, but it introduces a randommness and makes comparisons from round to round more difficult. Also I cannot believe that I would have ended up in third place in the CBL S1. Seems undeserved given all the strong players.

In any case I will think about it next week and come up with a mixture of the various systems. At least good that the upvotes also seem to get better, not only the number of players, compared to previous seasons!

[lighteye]

Also I cannot believe that I would have ended up in third place in the CBL S1. Seems undeserved given all the strong players.

That is because my system is favoring those who regularly attending the tournaments. In my system you were third because you participated at all four tournaments, and that was the idea – everybody should have a motive to be involved in every round! I think your third place was more deserved than Spago’s (in the original tournament rankings) who showed up only once, despite his high ELO.

And therefore it is also kind of unfair that you presenting the ranking after 4 rounds as bad example, because this shows only half of the truth in my point distribution system. E.g. the payouts from S7 were like this:

I did not criticize your rewarding system, because it is in the spirit of community, and I like it. The problem is a motivation for the lower ranked players, and that is resolved in my system.

Your proposal is very interesting, but it introduces a randommness and makes comparisons from round to round more difficult.

Exactly! The point is that nobody is safe in their place if they do not participate at the next tournament! And there is a motivation for more people joining 😃

Thank you for your comment, @stayoutoftherz, and keep your fine tournament for many years ahead!

BTW, if you want to try the system, I can send you ready-made Excel file to adapt it to the needs of your tournament.

[stayoutoftherz]

Thanks, and yes, please send me the Excel! I send you a private message on peakd.com.

[lighteye]

Here is a download link with the Excel file that will last seven days:

https://we.tl/t-JHsRE9fvSa

[stayoutoftherz]

Got it, many thanks!

[lighteye]

You are welcome, @stayoutoftherz

[chessbrotherspro]

Excellent post, @lighteye! Computing the data from all these tournaments is not so easy, btw :D Thanks for your work and sincere opinion and suggestions.

It certainly raises an interesting debate on what to encourage when organizing a chess tournament involving both chess players and cryptocurrency enthusiasts. At the moment, the season we are organizing is more focused on competitiveness, so rewarding the top 8 follows that spirit. However, what you propose is also valid. It encourages participation although it decreases competitiveness to some extent. The good thing about our community is that we have three tournaments, so we have a few alternatives for the prize system.

We can't implement these ideas in the current season as everything is ready to go, but we will definitely implement them in an upcoming season because they are reasonable, interesting and maybe many can potentially agree with you.

[lighteye]

Actually, computing was a piece of cake 😃 – Excel file can be made in minutes. Entering the data lasted much longer, but that is because I had for tournaments to enter. If you do it one by one, it is quick&easy with automatic calculations. If you send an email, you can have already made Excel calculator that you can adapt for new tournaments.

[lighteye]

Here is a download link with the Excel file that will last seven days:

https://we.tl/t-JHsRE9fvSa

[chessbrotherspro]

Very kind of you, @lighteye. Thank you!

[lighteye]

You are welcome, @chessbrotherspro, glad if I could help. Now we have Sonneborn–Berger score system for Swiss tournaments and Lighteye score system for Hive tournaments 😉

[chessbrotherspro]

Haha, yes, we do :)

[samostically]

Wow! This really took alot to compile, Great work sir!

The lower ranked players don’t even have a simple competitive motive of measuring their progress.

That is true,
what about category prizes such as
Best u-1800
Best u-1700
Best u-2000
Best female
Then there is no need for best 0ver-2000 as the winner will come from there. Then at least there something worth fighting for everyone.
@stayoutoftherz, @schamangerbert, @chessbrotherspro

[stayoutoftherz]

Great idea! But which timepoint counts for the rating? At season start, at the end, or an average?

[samostically]

So it's fair, I think you can use the last rating for the players in the previous tournament, that way categories are known already, And sandbagging won't work (For newcomers you can use their average at the end should they play a minimum number of games).

The idea is, not everyone should win a prize, but everyone should be able to fight for one.
The Saturdays tournament is okay as every one wins something.

The HIVE or HBD of this reminder posts will be distributed to all players (minimum 2 games played) in equal shares if the total amount is more than 10 HIVE, else it will go into the next round.

This is the Saturday tournament by @schamangerbert prize distribution

In conclusion, there can be just estimate of let's say 12 prizes with the top players fighting for (8) and (4) prizes for the special category winners.

Should a player that falls into the rating category finishes 6th. He/she gets the higher of the two prizes.

This way it's more competitive for everyone with higher prizes maybe, And yes. the best players wins both at the top and at the end too.

PS : It is just my suggestion and I would really love any decision and rules set by the tournament organisers. Gens una sumus.

[lighteye]

This is also very nice idea, @samostically. And it needs a precise ranking system like mine. As for the question @stayoutoftherz has posed:

which timepoint counts for the rating? At season start, at the end, or an average?

I think starting rating should be used as a reference, so the people could see their progress (or anything else 😉) during the tournament.

[stayoutoftherz]

I agree. Rating after first round is most straightforward. Rating before result of first round is tricky to obtain however.

[samostically]

Either way, Am glad it's something worth considering.

[chessbrotherspro]

Yeah, maybe it could work. We didn't find a simple solution since this is a prize for the whole league, not for a single tournament and also bc the rating points change constantly, etc. We thought about that :)

[chessbrotherspro]

Frankly, we have considered all these ideas even just before posting the final rules. Prizes for U-1800, U-2000, U-1500, etc., as well as a prize for the best female player, the best player with an old Hive account, the best player who is also a newcomer to Hive, and so on. We found problems across the board, such as some of the ones you guys brought up. For example, sandbagging, the fact that the ratings are constantly changing throughout the tournament and league, that using the initial rating was not convincing either, that we would need to check the gender of the users, some of whom would prefer to be anonymous, so it might be a bit invasive in terms of privacy, etc. So we decided to pass it up until we could think about it later or even until a situation like this arose where community members were interested in discussing it openly.

[chessbrotherspro]

Hey! Yeah, we considered these ideas too.

[hivebuzz]

Congratulations @lighteye! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

You made more than 12000 comments. Your next target is to reach 13000 comments.

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To support your work, I also upvoted your post!

[tungphong]

Great compare! I agree

[lighteye]

A vote of a first tournament champion has a special value. Thank you @tungphong 😃

[chessbrotherspro]

¡Enhorabuena!

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[tungphong]

Perfect analysis! I agree total

[rodrook]

I want to thank everyone for the thought, effort and work to make our entire chess community more entertaining and more competitive. However please excuse me from any thing that resemble traditional work as I have completely retired :).

[pixresteemer]

Bang, I did it again... I just rehived your post!!BEER₁₁