The stake giveth and the stake taketh away.
I got my first @appreciator vote ever last night!
It was a downvote
because I also got my first 100% @newsflash vote!
For whatever reason, Appreciator is countering Newsflash, probably because @transisto for many months has been downvoting posts that get votes from larger stake with the "x" accounts. For example, on the same post upvoted by Newsflash, Leo Finance also voted it, so there is this from xleo.voter:
I am no stranger to downvotes and I don't take it personally and, I knew this was going to happen.
I love Hive, because while there is so much opportunity, there is also so much drama because people take it all so seriously. This is largely because there is actual "money" on the table, and when people feel they are deserving of it, they respond poorly when it is "taken away", even if that happens before it is theirs.
Remember, no reward is yours until it is controlled by the keys you control. On a post, this means that no matter what the number may be, it is only yours at payout, seven days after the post was committed to the blockchain. Before that point, it is "in negotiation" with the rest of the stakeholders and for the most part, downvotes are quite rare for most people, even in retaliation or disagreement of rewards.
This doesn't stop people taking a downvote personally though, even if they know that there was nothing personal in the application of it. Sometimes it is personal of course. This is the largest downvote I have got:
Which was because I was supporting the fork from Steem to Hive, which if you don't know much about, you can read it here, which is where I took the screenshot from. It seems like such a long time ago!
Ah... good times.
Of course, while the downvote wiped away any earnings on that post, it was a "little bit" of overkill, as if I remember correctly, there was something like 30 dollars on it. But, it was very personal because I have always been pretty outspoken on various things on both Steem and Hive, including the bidbots like Appreciator was, and the content they vote on. It is also one of the largest staked downvotes ever, as there was something like 45 million Steem behind it :D
Yet, I still strongly agree with this kind of behavior from the various stakeholders, even when the stake is not their own, as is the case with @appreciator. They control 10.5M in stake, but 10.45 million of that is coming from two single accounts - @freedom and @mika. They both hold their keys and delegate as they choose, giving up their right to choose where the power of their stake through votes or downvotes land.
I wonder if any of those delegators have a look at what their value is voting on?
I suspect not.
This is the thing with delegating to curation projects though, without oversight, it is very much blind and that can end up causing problems in many ways, with other stakeholders. Yet, the reason that I defend the practices of downvoting like this is, stakeholders have the power to do as they please with their stake and for example, @transisto does hold his and has done for a long time, using it as he sees fit. How he has used it might be questioned, but it is al within the code of the blockchain, because that is all that can happen.
Hoping that people will do what is "right" is never going to happen however, because firstly, there is very little consensus on what is actually right and secondly, people will often not do what is right, even if they know it, if it is not in their best interest to do so. This is especially true when there is anonymity and pseudonymity.
If you are walking down the street at night with no one around and find a $100 dollar note, do you turn it into the police, or keep it? Is it a case of "finders keepers"?
At least in most countries, there are laws to say that it has to be turned in and if it isn't claimed or they can't find the owner, it is then returned to the person who found it.
Did you do the "right" thing?
Or did you make up your own laws?
Afterall, nothing in the "code" is stopping you from walking away with it, and without witnesses, there is no reason to suspect you will be caught anyway, so then it is more likely to become a crime of opportunity.
Hive has so much opportunity, which is also why there is so much "crime". Downvotes aren't a criminal act by any measure, but for example, stealing someone's keys through a discord scam, is. However, there is little that can be done about it, as even though there can be a tracked paper trail, the masks of the internet prevent anything being able to be done (in most cases) at the practical level. This is even harder in the crypto space.
While a lot of people think that these kinds of behaviors are holding us back, what is actually holding us back is not finding adequate solutions to deal with them. Hoping people will act well is a losing battle, which is why it all has to be applied into the code to incentivize and disincentivize the behaviors we want to see. It is very much like the Ghandi quote,
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Except it is applied at the blockchain level, so that processes encourage better behavior and, that behavior isn't just for a nicer environment, but one where people are able to build a life, which includes earning.
For example, the upcoming Hardfork is going to improve a lot of aspects of the Hive code that will allow Devs to build better experiences on the blockchain, as well as affect the resources required. While it doesn't do much for the reward mechanisms, at the end of the day, the reward values are tied to the development and the user opportunity on those applications, with the hope that the value they bring to their community of users is high enough to encourage continued growth and expanded usage.
Through this expansion of the Hive ecosystem, all of the stakeholders will hopefully increasingly benefit and rather than worrying about all of the drama at the infrastructure level, we will actually start supporting the ecosystem itself, to help it grow. It is a bit of a pipedream however, because unfortunately, there is always going to be tension at the infrastructure level, disagreement that restricts growth, because this is a decentralized environment.
If this was Facebook or Google, things would be far easier and faster to progress, because even if there are millions of stakeholders, very few of them have a say at the operational level. This means that all of the business decisions are centralized, so it is very easy to align. However, on Hive, we as stakeholders are owners of a single business controlled by our keys and people look to maximize their business, even if it conflicts with the growth of everyone's business.
It sounds like all is lost, but this is not actually the case, it is just that it takes far longer to align, but once the pieces fall into place, it becomes a far more robust experience for it. What is going to be a challenge is having the alignment happen fast enough, because the longer we don't align, the more competition will arrive that can learn from our mistakes and build a better experience more efficiently, with less resources and time.
In the case of downvotes however, they are a net positive for the ecosystem, as they are one of the only ways for the community to challenge negative behaviors, at least through the distribution mechanisms, but also through the curbing of unwanted behaviors - even if people don't agree on what those might be completely. But, for those that receive them, it can "feel" like a loss, because we focus on the immediate moment, rather than the long-term view of our experience, which is part of the problem when it comes to stakeholders and why so few see the future value potential.
So, while this is a bit of a long post for this, I think that it is worth it for those who wonder why they might have got some vote and then got an almost equivalent downvote some time later. It is also worth it to understand a bit of why downvotes are important and why it is necessary to develop the code to enable the growth of a healthy ecosystem, rather than relying on the hope that people will do the right thing.
As I see it, ultimately, the value of the Hive blockchain is derived from its ability to support application development on the chain, with a community that is gathered around the many applications, not through the rewarding of content with the core token. However, the rewarding of content is valuable now as a way to build the community and distribute the ownership to those who ware willing to stake-in as owners.
Yet, this is also an imperfect model as experience tells that no matter how much some get, they are the types of people who will powerdown and leave at the first signs of trouble or profit. This will eventually consolidate to holders who support the network, but it takes a lot longer than rewarding those people who are here for the long-haul directly.
Hive is such an interesting experience, isn't it?
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
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It is an imperfect model, however there are things people, (the group), can do to offset bad behavior of a down vote out of spite. People just need to up vote it. I have voted on post that have down votes several times, I disagree with the down vote so up vote them. I have in the past helped people that were caught in the down vote cycle of hajin/bernie on steemit by providing votes to raise them back up. This is where - "We the People" - actually can and do make a difference.
Theft, unfortunately is a part of the issue also. Not long ago there was a post of about someone forgetting one letter and sent funds to the wrong address, the funds were not returned, and would never be returned. I gave their post an up vote and then proceeded to send them one hive to help offset the loss. If enough people take the time they can resolve the theft issue. Of course people will try and take advantage of people,k people are after all people.
Yes - when there is the constant "malicious" downvoting, it is possible for the community to counter it. I was someone who took months of downvotes from both of those accounts you mentioned.
It is annoying when people send their funds to an exchange and get the exchange name wrong. I think that there should be more ways to "whitelist" addresses, identify wrong addresses and doublecheck transactions.
It would be nice to see a solution to the wrong address problem.
lol omg i remember bernie hahahahah omg if u didnt mention him in ur comment i wouldnt even have remembered bernie... that last period before the fork were crazy anyways that is why i always send 1 hive to a new address to see if it foes through then i send the rest being extra careful always maybe a mechanism that will force you to send a small amount first for new addresses at least or if you chose to keep the option always on its up to you. Also there must be a way to communicate with the wallet you want to send funds to, like a signature key or something that lets you know its the right wallet in that way you dont have to actually send anything even if a small quantity, i dont know im just a dude.
I actually came here by searching how much time do I need to wait for payouts from delegation, the search engine has always been misleading also but in this case im glad i found you lol.
I am delegating some HP to leo.voter for the last 3 days or so and didnt get nothing yet I tried to communicate with everybody but had no luck, inleo.io also doesnt have any support and the site doesnt load some pages so its been a bummer really. I am thinking of revoking my delegation and delegate to @qurator and @ecency idk see another thing about this ecosystem is no matter what platform you access there arent any standard guidelines to follow when getting started and so one has to do a lot of research, switch between dapps, talk to people in hope they reply back and really its kinda discouraging and i can imagine overwhelming for the witnesses and helpers in general.
Therefore I think that a standard page that summarizes what new users need to know to get started right off must be available in all dapps present and future and updated seamlessly throughout all platforms and websites. This is crucial because some people come for the money and they need to be able to find and chose who they want to delegate their HP depending on rewards etc, so that will create competitiveness between the delegees and at the same time reinforce the ecosystem because it will reply directly to the peoples choice, not everybody is a blogger or an artist in fact if you want mass adoption you need to involve all people and to do so you need a monetary incentive, everybody understand money and people will gladly delegate their power in return for some benefits. this will increase curation rewards and the participation of everybody that wants to join. This is all happening of course but i feel in a scattered way, we need to consolidate the delegation service in a way that everybody has a clear path on what they can do but it has to be coordinated with all interfaces. Something like "Are you new here?! get started by click the button below" and... "Are you ready to buy some HIVEs?! Chose from the different payments methods below"... "Don't know how to pay?! Don't worry just follow these steps!"... "Are ready to delegate some HP, want to know who has the best daily payouts at the moment?! Check the list below! Click on their description for detailed insights! Unsure yet on who to chose?! Check out our Delegation advisory page based on users reviews and upvotes! Don't forget to have fun!!". Users should be able to start off immediately after signing up just like fb, X and yt with emails and 2fa then later on they can learn about how to access using the different keys and the importance of it but not at the start its just overwhelming to see all these numbers and letters strings, kinda scary I would add. Support must be paramount and help out newbies engage immediately otherwise we will continue having rising inactive accounts which serve nobody. omg I ranted x) sorry for the lengthy comment :|
Congrats on your first @appreciator uhm.. sighting. He used to stop by occasionally. Back when three of us ran the foodfightfriday account, my handle was assumed the key holder. But I wasn't. A contender got all sensitive once about a gif one of the other guys attached to her comment section so she completely jumped my shit on discord and even threatened me. It was just a gif. So I said what I said to her in private and, whether it's coincidental or consequential is still anyones guess, foodfight was dumped the following day and DanDays hasn't received support since.
That was three years ago. Oh! And congrats on those downvotes! This one and that steemit one. You're such a one-upper. My biggest was -$17 on a puppy rescue. Mhmm, a puppy rescue.
Yeah, I used to call them out a lot as a bidbot voting on crap, so I suspect that has something to do with me not getting votes now. But, it is always interesting to see some of the posts that curation accounts support:
https://peakd.com/c/hive-103678/trending
It is interesting how some people rage at competition initiatives! The entitlement is real.
When it comes to most of these kinds of downvotes, they aren't based on the content at all, so it doesn't matter if it is a puppy rescue or a child's birthday. This is why it shouldn't be taken personally.
You're making this up. You make up everything as you go.
caught! :D
The drama between downvotes has always been crazy and it's something you just have to get used to. At least, it's better than the current system as you are still rewarded for your efforts. Overtime, the dilution of their staked HP will go down unless they are active on the chain so I don't think it has too big of an effect.
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That dilution of stake is important, with quite a few getting out over time, never to return with much force.
Well I can tell you that Hive is a sight better than Blogger for instance, which was my home before I setup camp here.
The theft of my content on that platform and the headache in having to fill out a form for each individual stolen post led me in search of a better alternative, thus I'm glad I found Hive.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
I had no idea it was such an issue on those kinds of platforms. What was the earning potential like there?
Nothing like the potential we have here, but it was where I cut my teeth in learning how to blog.
Remember, Blogger was ad-supported, so I had an Adsense account and hat to optimize my posts for the tech audience I was trying to reach. As I was just starting out, my account eventually grew to buck or so on a good day, but it was the learning that was important to me.
I wrote a review of a version of Photoshop that for a few days ranked above the one from Adobe before somebody got a clue over there. This was back when I read everything on how to be a better blogger and was testing things to see what worked.
This was a test blog and I didn't want anyone here to see my screwups, but people were watching (I could see it in my analytics).
I quizzed people about why they clicked on the link to my site. Spent hours commenting and thus making a backlink so I could better rank on Google, all while keeping it quiet from anyone local.
That's why I was shocked that anyone would want to copy my content. I was new and making plenty of mistakes at the start, but that's how you learn.
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Very interesting, I got the exact opposite on my post I wrote about Splinterlands a couple of days ago. I got an upvote by appreciator followed by a downvote by newsflash. I am guessing it has nothing to do with the content, but still weird for 'regular' bloggers to be caught up in these whale wars.
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Yeah, I think that newsflash counters appreciator with about a 10% downvote, but appreciator goes full 1:1, as they have all that massive delegation behind them. It is all a bit silly, but just carry on with your day and do what you do :)
Ok, must feel honoured then, mine was a 25% downvote :)
Indeed it is. Thanks for this interesting point of view about this downvote thing. I haven't gotten any of this...ehm... Can I calle it reward backlash? But I did think there was something going on with his the rewards were being distributed. When I thought about downvotes, my first impression was that there were to punish bad behaviors like spamming content and else. But then I remembered that communities can mute content. It didn't cross my mind at the time that since stake is personal (as far as that can go), if a big whale decides that the distribution of rewards is against the unspoken code, they can adjust it with a downvote.
I guess this only hurts people who use Hive as a way to make ends meet. It is really hard and even harder not to look at it as a personal vendetta. It kinda is. We are just in the middle of the spite.
They are mostly used for things like plagiarism and reward redistribution on some accounts that get a lot of support from blind voters, but it is interesting how some of the larger accounts use them.
I would hope that more people would stop seeing it as a way to make ends meet, as while I understand why many would and do, it is never going to last that way for them as individuals, but they will come to rely on it. This makes their future even harder.
I see. Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed to be left out of that fight. It won't be difficult since I don't receive too many votes from either accounts.
About the second point. It's a hard thing to achieve. I remember that when I had another job, I used to put all my rewards into stake. And I still recommend a lot of people to do it while they can. I believe growing the account is better than milking it for profit. But that's my way of looking at it. Hive might help me down the line to solve an emergency.
Yeah, most people won't have much impact from these types of votes and, they cancel each other out here.
I hope Hive does help people out, but I hope they benefit longterm, so it can be sustainable, not just for a moment.
Oh, yeah. That's the way I see the whole desl with the blog. It isn't a thing for easy profit. That's the beauty of it as well. It needs hard work to get the ball rolling and even more effort to keep it that way. I bet anyone who sees past the needs of the moment would find this piece of the Blockchain an attractive investment.
I don't know much about downvotes maybe cause I don't get any, except for xleo.voter. But I think it's more about the intentions behind the downvote rather than the actual downvotes itself.
Those who didn't support steem during the fork to hive sure gets lots of downvotes which doesn't mean they did something wrong entirely. This is a decentralize system so anyone can do as. they see fit, it' just toxic when it doesn't support the growth of the chain, but what do I know.
Posted using LeoFinance Mobile
The intention behind these kinds of upvotes and downvotes I posted here, has nothing to do with me personally, I am just the visible side. The intention of it is in the minds of those doing it, but it isn't clear where there are any benefits for anyone involved.
The downvotes from Steemit was because the Korean witnesses were controlling the downvotes, people who I had spoken out against strongly and who weren't happy with getting their circlejerk voting circles downvoted for the year prior. They were never part of the Steem community, they were just extractors - they are still doing it on Steem to this day.
During my first few months in Hive, I used to think that this platform is so "clean" and free of drama, but as I travel deeper, I can see that's not the case.
But it seems to me that it's more about "business" over here, votes/downvotes, opinions, they don't seem too personal, which is actually the opposite of common social media.
plenty of drama here, though most people won't be dragged into it, unless they want to be. And yes, it is often about "business" in the sense that people are investing into the platform too, as well as looking for an ROI in the future at least.
Guess I wasn't wrong then lol
:)
I can imagine that would get annoying, the only times i got downvoted was with a 1% downvote by all i can assume was a spam/troll account ,but as you say nothing is yours minus the keys in your wallet
Are you really from Burnley, blimey... next door to me!
Yeah, there are those random weirdos who think people care about their random downvotes :D
I suppose downvotes may serve a purpose, but I have seen more abuse of the downvote than it being used productively. As for me, I do not downvote. I have received a few downvotes in my five years, but try to defuse or ignore them. It seems negative votes only encourage negativity.
It always depends where you look. There have been some very abusive people on this platform over the years and without downvotes, they would still be here doing it. That kind of behavior sets examples and poisons the platform too.
Can someone legit tell me when a downvote was ever a good thing? It was meant to combat spam etc instead it's used for everything but.
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It was always "meant" for disagreement of rewards too. However, this has nothing to do with that. Appreciator wants to keep all of their large cut of the curation, Newsflash bites into that with a 10% downvote. Because the delegation appreciator has is so large, they can downvote newsflash-supported content 100%.
It is a bit silly, but they seem to think it is important enough for them to waste their time on.
STILL, congrats on the big upvote! 👍
:D
I was surprised when I saw such a big downvote under your post. Ignore these cons. Personally, I'm already used to it. Although Hive without cons would be better (or with hidden cons).
They happen from time to time - no big issues.
As I have always said, I am against downvote if it is used arbitrarily. Sometimes I think that things on HIVE are on the knife edge.
Also, I have noticed that the payouts of your posts have recently been declined. Is it because of this?
If you mean that my posts are earning less, it isn't because of this - it is just that I get less support :)
Why less support then?
Support comes and goes. It is just the way of it.
Hi Mr @tarazkp. Your discussion is increasingly opening my new insight about the mechanism that applies here. I thank you for this quality post of yours.
For me who is still young here, "downvote" is a frightening specter. I never expected that to happen to me and it certainly doesn't happen to anyone here either.
However, as an instrument for regulating deviant behavior from various waves of abuse, downvotes are important.
That would be a consequence of the deviations made here.
Is it still a scourge? Of course not, if we don't do any abuse.
Stakeholders are certainly considerate in taking advantage of their large downvote power and I am sure they will also be very careful in doing so.
The problem is that when there is value on the table, all kinds of people will try and take it and many, will do it in ways that are not positive for the rest. Human nature seems to be one that cuts corners, but there are also enough of the types of people who are assholes as well, that something has to be in place to deal with them.
I personally didn't knew about this thing before.
It's quite strange to me but understand enough of this upvote to downvote thing after reading this and hopefully there will be a better solution.
Decentralized system isn't always perfect that's what I think and it is really hard to make everything perfect.
Quite shock to see that $370- Downvote but I see where it comes from.
Hopefully the next hardfork will make things simply better.
Downvotes are necessary until some point in time that there is no earning on content on Hive :D
Wait is that even possible, are we going to see that time of no earning on content on hive.? Hopefully it's sarcasm!
Eventually I think, because it should be that the earnings will come from the applications directly, in the same way Splinterlands or Leo finance create value for users. It is a long way away though.
Newsflash was supposed to be countered by xnewsflash :D
:D
expanded my view.
thanx!
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Glad to hear :)
I had my first "ignorer" today, I had no idea that was a thing on this platform! If they wish to ignore me, that's their prerogative.
And why can't you make only one tick, with a plus sign? Should developers try to remove the minus from the blockchain?
And if some spaminator comes - block it and that's it
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.