A bit of a rant.

in #hive3 months ago (edited)

removes gloves

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The most overlooked topic in crypto is token distribution on stake-based networks. Using decentralization and premine in the same sentence on a stake-based system is an oxymoron. There is a good reason it's not talked about. When big players in crypto are moving towards centralization yet are trying to appear decentralized, the industry at large will ignore the most important metric; it just so happens that neglecting this one metric can make any entity extremely rich and powerful. We've seen the rise of billionaires in crypto left and right. These networks control the future of our free internet.

I usually don't go this way about getting my point across, but sometimes you just have to say it how you see it.

It's not about getting to a place they (they = powerful interest) won't; it's about getting to a place that they can't. If they can get an inch, miles await—let the free market choose its path, find the weakness, exploit it with infinite money until you control said network. You often hear of the "good ole days" of free speech, now it's all seeming agenda based. Censorship went from conspiracy theorists to competing business models. It's happened time & time & time again.

The major issue here is not knowing who is shadow banned; if you silence somehow, you need to tell the world at least. Creating fake viral narratives and silencing others, and acting as if it's the free market's doing leads to very bad outcomes.

Remember youtube when it first came out? Well, it started out very free speech because it wasn't dominant. Free is what rises to the top; they let it rise to the top just to take it over. Taking it over too soon will strangle it and make it fail. Achieve mass network effect, milk the effect for whatever your agenda may be, usually to make more money and power. As per web3, Hive has shown you can't buy a community; taking away the ability to money attack something is their kryptonite. Why is Hive being shadowbanned, yet tons of centralized coin have millions of followers and is clearly not being shadowbanned? How could so many Hiver's accounts get banned, yet Justin Sun, with millions of followers, does not get banned for relentlessly promoting Tron? The answer is simple, let the centralized chains gain mass adoption so they are easy to take over.

It's not so much that I care what their intentions are; I'm focused on getting to a place where it's irrelevant.

I've been banned from Twitter. I know writing about this stuff, calling out the obvious, showing how to opt-out of web 2 into web 3 will be heavily censored. You can't censor me here. My words live forever here. So, I will speak to them to the fullest extent. I am the tree in the forest. Whether anyone will hear me is irrelevant. I'm here, and I remain, and so what I've built and spoken. Give me that, my planted seeds, and one day they will grow. I will continue to apply the pressure, remain consistent, and not voluntarily budge an inch. I don't care what your agenda is. The moment my freedoms are being threatened for whatever reason, I will resist, I will innovate, and I will build out of whatever hole I'm thrown in. The most important thing is to speak your truth, your mind, your words are yours, they belong to you, and it is our natural right to have the ability to be heard. No one has to listen but demand your right to be heard. Free speech is the layer 1 for civilization. It cannot become centralized. It must be distributed and free.

Stake-based systems are the future of web 3. There will be only 1 mass adopted PoW coin, and Bitcoin (BTC) has an almost insurmountable lead vs. the next PoW coin. As we gain more adoption, expect to see more and more vicious 51% attacks until any PoW token that isn't BTC is delisted from all major exchanges due to security issues. The point here is PoW, when it comes to web 3, is a store of value, being that BTC has very low TPS. Anything built outside of BTC will need its own security. There is a big misnomer that things will be built inside of BTC, which is incorrect. They will BRIDGE to BTC, communicate with it. This is like saying SPK will store videos on the Hive blockchain, no that is false. We are storing videos outside of Hive while storing the file names on Hive as an immutable ledger "truth table" to be recalled at any time.

I do not consider DPOS alone as a token distribution model; it must be combined with another form of distribution for reasons I'll explain below. Token distribution can only be done in so many ways. The goal is always to try and get as many tokens in as many different people's hands as possible and make the barrier of entry as low as possible in all ways (knowledge, awareness, cost to participate, time, etc.). The main three we know of are proof of work (PoW), proof of stake (PoS) & more niche/underrated is proof of brain (PoB.) I've seen several variants of PoB as well, mainly using your brain to distribute tokens as a stake hodler.

DPOS without PoB or some form of a variant of token distribution built-in is the absolute worse way to set up token distribution. That's why I was highly surprised looking back at Dan Larimer, inventor of PoB, leaving PoB style distribution for EOS, which is just purely DPOS without any other token distribution methods— this is a glaringly oversite on paper and leads to centralization in practice every time.

Moreover, having a short unstake period lets exchanges take over the chain using custodial funds on EOS. For creating what I consider the greatest governance model in history, DPOS + PoB (Now + DAO) with a long lockup to something that is the exact opposite was just a big mistake.

Also, thinking you can get the entire supply (minus small inflation) well distributed in just one year, via a hyped-up ICO, during a bull run was a major misstep as well. No one knows how long is best for a initial proper token distribution; however, I am very confident in saying it's much longer than one year. My belief is the token should start at zero supply. Everyone has a fair chance to obtain it at the start of distribution, and it's very slowly distributed over many, many years, eventually coming to either a cap or very low inflation paired with proper sinks.

Having a token sale that lasts a short period has so many downsides that stifle the ability for decentralization to flourish. First, less than 1% of the world knows about crypto now, way less know how to participate in an ICO, even less deal with the risk (both legal and potential scam) to invest. This means that the ones who buy ICO tokens are mainly insiders, people who are very deep into crypto to see potential in the underlining protocol.

The point is your distribution is going to a very, very small potential group of people. Token distribution is in terms of decades, not months. You just can't rush how the token is released for the sake of a large capital raise if your goal is censorship resistance. Tokens distribution should be as future-proof as possible instead of being in the "right time & place" to buy tokens for dirt cheap in bulk, thus controlling most of the supply from the start. People on Hive that stack are helping others stack as well, new users getting upvotes on their intro post, and encouragement to give to new is always there with PoB.

With PoB, we have people on Hive who don't even know what an ICO is, have never used another crypto before, and just come here to enjoy the utility. That method of gaining tokens lasts forever on Hive, that distribution to ANYONE in the world, not just crypto-savvy insiders.

The most important aspect of these web3 platforms is control over governance. Systems that involve premines and ICO's thus centralized token distribution don't magically become decentralized down the road unless a community forks to a new chain and slashes the founder's premine out. Those in power will always stay in power or transfer that power to the highest bidder. Hive is apples and oranges when comparing true censorship resistance to EOS. Maybe EOS is meant to favor the centralization of its protocol by exchanges; it's certainly helped its market cap.

Market caps are extremely easy to manipulate, esp if there is a premine + large ICO raise for marketing. Choke supply with the premine, spend millions marketing, low circulating supply gets eaten up, and that's how you get these ridiculous multi-billion-dollar market caps on these ghost chains. 99% of the top 100 is 100% speculation with zero actual use cases. Speculation only lasts so long until the free market demands utility, and that utility will be dropped to the lowest possible amount due to competition from the free market. Speculation is akin to a passing cloud, whereas utility is the sky.

I'm also highly surprised at Vitalik's move to PoS with ETH; the premine was fine under a PoW model where tokens could not be weaponized and used to centralize the chain. The move to PoS, coming from a premine + ICO (sold to insiders), is the absolute worst thing you could do if you seek censorship resistance. PoS is a terrible token distribution model for a layer 1 chain, especially if you have a premine & ICO. The tokens go to those who have tokens and there is no incentive to spread them to increase the network effect. This means the rich get richer, with their premine and cheap ICO tokens, making it impossible for any normal person to catch up. Once in PoS, you will not see a "community" decision that is accepted that goes against the wishes of the ETH Foundation. It's meme governance.

The rest of the eth forks are all premine centralized token distribution, maybe a few I'm overlooking, but for the most part, esp anything top 100, all centralized token distribution on staked-based chains and or minority hash rate PoW coins. Both will end up either centralized or relentlessly attacked into oblivion.

Token distribution is paramount on any stake-based chain. PoB provides unique incentives to "give away" to be rewarded yourself. It's a twist on normal PoS, where on PoS, the staker simply sits back and collects 100% of the reward with 0 incentive to distribute the token to anyone else.

Before the EIP, this technology had a much worse problem than the current one we face today, and that was the plague of vote-selling. "Bidbots" dominated the network, and the only way to get trending was to buy votes. It was a terrible system, and when free downvotes were introduced, it literally whipped them out overnight. What this did was incentivized people to upvote others instead of selling votes/self-vote. Of course, you fix one problem just to get another one in different clothing; Removing downvotes isn't an option, or you'd see rampant abuse, but we can look to game theory the best weight for a DV & rethink the number of free DVs, but that's a whole other post I'll get into next week.

It's a tough dilemma, and to be honest, PoB is groundbreaking. It isn't easy to solve how you create an environment where people share, in a world where it's dog-eat-dog. You need to hit all points, greed & punishment, properly. Greed meaning, if you curate correctly, you'll win. If you abuse the system, you are punished (downvotes.) In any system, when you create coins, there is a punishment mechanism. In PoS, if you fail to do your job as a validator, you lose funds as a punishment. It's the same concept. Since DPOS focuses rewards on a smaller set of people, since the tech here requires very little overhead, we can afford to pay witnesses much smaller than other networks with uncapped consensus nodes. This means we can afford to have more variations of token distribution without being hyperinflationary.

In any system, the goal is to have the exploiters do good to make the most rewards. For example.; on Hive, we have someone called Haejin. He was the biggest abuser I have ever witnessed. If you had to create the ultimate bad actor that just exploits the worse way possible while trying to tear everything down in his path, you'd create him. He has access to a very large stake that isn't his. That is the ultimate exploitation because it's not even his stake, so he does not care if Hive does to zero; he just wants to milk as much as possible for as long as possible. These are actually good people to have early in your ecosystem because they exist everywhere, and there is no cure for them. The only thing you can do is set up the game to where good or bad; everyone does the same thing because it pays the best. Haejin went from being the ultimate abuser to what some would consider a decent curator now, far from being malicious now. Haejin realized he would make more by doing good behavior than he would by doing bad. His bad behavior, self-voting with 100% weight on 10 spam post a day, ended up getting his post nuked to zero where he was earning NOTHING with his the stake he somehow has access to. The system forced even someone who I believe hates Hive would love to see it burn, still help the network with good behavior because it's the most optimal. I've seen him upvote people he clearly detests, which is an amazing sign for this PoB in practice. If you can achieve this, you have done something truly rare and is quite the accomplishment. And we are not even done tweaking PoB yet.

While PoB can be improved, and maybe there is another way of distributing tokens in this day and age that actually works. But for what it is, it's working. And if it works a little, it can work a lot. Since every time we have tweaked PoB, we have seen an improvement; this encourages me to keep exploring the topic to its fullest potential. The protocol has been tweaked and tweaked. One tweak, we eliminated vote-selling overnight. With equal curation and free downvotes, we saw people stop self-voting. We recently saw the curation window flatten and lengthen, a great improvement that will further help token distribution. This thing just keeps getting better. There are a few more tweaks I already know we can make that will help, and I'm sure others have ideas as well. This thing hasn't even reached its final form yet. We've infiltrated every country in the world; we are in places no other cryptos can touch due to their fees. We see people flocked to centralized DPOS chains or minority PoW coins due to their cheaper fees. This is not the way.

This is the time to press the gas, see where we can take this thing. No need to slow down; we're about to see the biggest shift in human history.

It really does not take a genius to see what is going on in the markets. Centralized chains are being touted by billionaires, not being shadow banned on web 2. Connecting the dots, I'd say those with power want to stay in power, and there is zero power to be taken in a tough layer zero with the good token distribution. That is the greatest fear of any conqueror. They hide what we have because we have the answer, the blueprint. We showed the world what happens when insurmountable money and influence come knocking, then demanding, and even when it seemed all was lost, we became immortal before the world. People saw even in the bleakest of moments.... there is a way out; there is a way to keep moving forward. That is the last thing any of these web 2 giants want to showcase.

It isn't a coincidence I was banned right after the hostile takeover, but the man who stole millions from us, blatantly in front of all, is still there, scamming till this day with his pre-mined coin collection. It isn't a coincidence the most powerful people in crypto accepted the theft fork and still list steem and work with Tron until this day. Self-respect is easily swallowed by some when money is on the table. It isn't a coincidence that every major Hive-related tweet when it came to that hostile takeover is shadow banned, likes removed, made impossible ever to go viral, to ever been seen again by anyone. They want this door shut; they want this story to go away. It is the single biggest threat to the status quo this world has ever seen. Here, in our little corner of the internet, we stand for what we believe in, we will not budge, and we will not go quietly into the night. Our story will be heard and will be told by future generations. What was done is here is permanent; they can't erase it on Hive. The more they cloak us, the sharper our daggers become. We don't need anyone's permission; we will rise above any challenge they present to us.

We are the kink in the chain. We are the unaccounted for. The overlooked, the misunderstood & the underestimated—the underdogs. We are the passion hidden in plain sight. We are the answer tapped to your back. We are here when you never knew you needed us. We march for those that can't walk. We speak for those that can't talk. We shine a light for those that have darkness. Never forget who we are, why we are here, and where we are going. The sticks and stones will turn to dust underneath our consistent stomp. When history is being made, the most important moments are fleeting, underestimated, never knowing how big the ripple effects are. The domino we pushed over as a community has set forth an immutable path, one that cannot be undone. The implications of what we have done here are world-changing, and it's only when saying things like this seem silly do you know how early we truly are. Without foresight, no one could ever imagine the simple digging of a hole and planting a seed to create a mighty oak.

Hivers, we have dug the hole, and we have planted the seed. If we continue to water, the universe has no choice but to bend to our will and lets us grow as big as our seed allows.

And I'll end it on this. Even with Steem, those of us that valued the fundamentals of web3, censorship resistance, and the new account ownership model, we still hung around despite the 80% ninja mine. People just don't want to fork away and split the community. If the founders with the premine are acting benevolently, many people view that as a good thing. Some appreciate the comfort of a "sugar daddy" who will cuddle the chain and pat everyone on the back, saying good job. Stockholm syndrome is real, and some people just want are not confident enough in their community to do it without centralized backing. There was a large faction that wanted to fork a long time ago, even at the start. And we did see forks; mostly, they died out. It's just hard to convince people to go "your" route and getting an entire community to agree to a fork during peaceful times is virtually impossible. On paper, you think it'd be easy, but in practice, where emotions are large, many various factions with various beef with other groups inside the same ecosystem. Some witnesses on Hive that ran this chain couldn't sit in a room with each other. That's gridlock. It literally takes an alien invasion-like scenario for the entire world to come together. That's who it's always been. Looking back, we were fortunate enough to have such an event and even more fortunate to have a community willing to rise to the challenge.

Now here we are, no centralized backing, no founder, and we are figuring this out together. We're doing it against all odds; not only do we not have centralized backing, but it very well seems that those with large, centralized backing are constantly attacking us, trying to erase our story from history. We swim against the current, and those of us with our eyes open understand what's at stake and how amazing this technology and opportunity is.

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Is the two thirds of hive that resides on the exchanges an attack vector?
How much of that 2/3 is from the ninjamine and who does it belong to?
We should be able to trace all transfers to exchanges by account, yes?

These questions are the only remaining sword of Damocles that I see.
If half of that hive powered up tomorrow all hell would break loose, eh?

The piano hanging above Hive in the form of exchange custody tokens can't snap and instantly fall. It's more like a grandfather clock weight, because now there's a 30 day period during which any potential stake-based attack can be calmly evaluated and mitigated.

I'm still not comfortable with the potential economic fallout that exchanges risk by not bothering to use cold accounts (Binance, Bittrex, and more). And to be clear, their cavalier and lazy token handling isn't a big risk to them, but it's a risk to Hive and those who own the tokens. I don't like how that risk is externalized to us and we haven't done more to strongly remind them of better security practices.

I'll be sooo glad when our dex's replace the cex's.
I've been using blocktrades for anything hive related and stealthex for other coins.
If one of those exchanges was 'hacked', a soft fork could mitigate this?

I'm betting a 'not your keys, not your coins' day would burst some cex bubbles.
What happened to those, anyway?

I'm most worried about a bot army coming out of nowhere and running amok.
Or, being here already and getting large enough to eat the rest of us.
I'm guessing code is available that can exclude any accounts involved in such an attack once implemented by a soft fork?

Is anybody watching?

The 90-day lock-up is the kryptonite to exchanges. It just isn't feasible for them to try and attack the network. They could not afford a bank run, have to disable trading, and all negative press would bring them to their knees. Lucky for us, we have seen this in practice, and I believe CZ couldn't say "I'm so sorry" enough. I doubt we'll see it again; if we do, we have a 1month lock up and can freeze their funds. Check mate there unless they moved funds to many anon accounts, slowly powered up without anyone noticing, but now we are getting into sci-fi lvl reality.

I'm not so worried about the exchanges willingly putting a noose on their necks, again, they lost that battle in the press.
I'm worried about 'ned', or anybody else with a grudge, still holding 'free' coins.

Even with a 30 day grace period, if a substantial amount of that hive is held by somebody that doesn't have the success of the hive in mind they could upset the apple cart pretty easily.

They can 'legitimately' cause havoc just voting that much hive power in the pool.
Presuming it is held in few enough hands.

It's not a pressing issue, but something to bear in mind in the contingency planning.
Presuming they came in low profile over an extended period, or spread it out enough to avoid suspicion, by voting that hive in concert they can run amok until the soft fork is put into place by the witnesses.
I don't think they would win, but they could excite us nonetheless.
Might even turn out to be a good thing.

I guess my question is about the readiness of a soft fork to quell this type of attack once recognized.
And, is somebody watching for this to be done quietly before coming out into the open as blatantly obvious?

Telling people what they're allowed to do with their own tokens is anathema.

Coercing people who spend in ways that you personally disagree with is DEMONSTRABLY WORSE than the current PAPER FIAT system.

We should be working to IMPROVE protections for personal sovereignty, not looking for ways to CONFISCATE value from people we disagree with.

I would agree with you if we weren't still in the bootstrapping stage.
Anybody dumping everything now is counterproductive to getting bootstrapped.

It's no more wrong to flag away rewards than it is to give them in the first place, when you give them they have come from the same place that flags send them back to.

Games have rules, without rules there is no game.
If we change the rules to fit our purposes, what was the point of the game?
Playing a different set of rules changes this game fundamentally.

Anybody not liking the rules can divest, if they so choose.

Flags confiscate nothing.
Nothing is your's until it is in your wallet.
Harsh, yes, but succeeding in a tough game deserves more accolades than just showing up.
Imo.

ME: GIANT WHALE UPVOTING MYSELF TO EARN DIVIDEND

YOU: GIANT DAILY DOWNVOTE

ME: GIANT WHALE FOLLOWS YOUR CURATION TRAIL TO EARN DIVIDEND

HOW IS THIS NOT NAKED COERCION ?

Upvoting yourself is a hive faux pas.
This game has rules, if it didn't there wouldn't be any point in playing it.
One rule is that we have to flag abuse, or get sucked dry by low effort posting.
If you are not doing that, you are playing the game in contradiction to its rules.

I guess I'm not following your example.
Please clarify.

every single time i've asked the vigilantes what "the rules" are, i've been told "there are no rules", "anybody can downvote anybody else for any reason".

how is anyone supposed to know "don't self-vote" ?

that seems like a simple code fix.

the "rules" should be in code.

Not selfvoting is a small sacrifice the community asks you to have the self discipline to make.
In return you can blog for money.
You can comment for money.

If you are that selfish that you can't make yourself stop taking from us and giving to yourself, we probably don't want you here anyway.

If everybody self voted the platform will fail.
Nobody wants to play that game.

I prefer that people self control rather than be controlled, eh?
Without knowing wrong, there is no right, irrespective of any labels.
Without the option to offend, not offending loses its moral victory.

If everybody self voted the platform will fail.

this sounds like a systemic design failure.

not an individual moral failure.

it's bad game design.

HIVE stake needs to be distributed well enough to make this work. The original design had a good idea to do this: the free-roll posting rewards paid half out in stake. In combination with the original two year power down schedule, this was a good idea. But since that wasn't compatible with the investor class of user, it was changed to the compromise we have today. But both liquidity and stake distribution goals can be accomplished with a system that doesn't compromise stake distribution.

If free roll stake earned from the reward pool were put into a separate balance, going forward from the hardfork that implements it, that balance could be on a different power down schedule. Invested/legacy HP would be summed with earned for all influence purposes. The only difference is how long it takes to power down. Setting that to the original two year schedule or something less sticky like one year would allow stake to remain in the hands of people on the ground, posting and engaging with Hive. It's easy to see how massive the effect would be on distribution, and how rewards could be much more naturally distributed towards what really brings value to the platform.

I agree. That is why I am a fan of not lowering the power downtime but instead adding a instant power down + 10% fee attached in which the fee goes back to the stakers. With this in place, we could move the power downtime from 3 months to 2 years. This system will guarantee a high rate of return in Hive simply because when people need to cash out, they will hit the instant way, thus leaving more and more fees to be given to those remaining powered up. Basically, people who power down all their rewards now will be the ones instantly powering down their rewards under a IPD system—so finding a way, in theory, to appease the short-term speculators while rewarding long-term holders.

I know I will hear with IPD because it makes it easier for people to get out and thus not keep people sticking to the platform. But I would argue these people would PD 100% under the new system anyway. People who are not PD now, I don't see PD instantly for a 10% hit because if they needed the $$ that bad, they'd be powering down already.

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When I, one of the rare lefties here on Hive, see my fellow leftists just bashing crypto with a broad brush when a) it's obvious they've never really learned anything about it, they read some hit piece and are just convinced; and/or b) they think all crypto is the same like Bitcoin, I do my best to try and tell them why Hive is different. By the end me going on about my poor-in-a-rich-country ass doing well here and others in poor countries doing well here and it making a difference in our lives, and describing how PoS works and how the hostile takeover was thwarted, etc. - I usually get some begrudging, "Okay. Your place is better, but the rest of them suck" type acknowledgment. The main thing that I think would make this more adoptable by non-techie normies like myself is a "block" option, as that is the one thing I agree could be unsafe. If someone has a stalker or something, or if someone is targeted by bigots who by definition cannot be booted as might happen in a fb group, say, if they got out of line harassing someone, makes people feel unsafe about it. You can mute a person but if they can still see your posts, you're gonna not feel safe posting, ya know? I hope one day that makes it into a fork. But in the meantime, I continue to do my best to show people that there ARE more equitable, truly decentralized options both in a crypto sense and in a social media sense.
Every time I do a Coinbase Earn activity learning about some new coin, almost every time they're like, "this new coin you've never heard of solves this crypto problem by doing this!" and I'm like "Hive already does that, when list Hive, Coinbase?!"

That Twitter blocking function is just juvenile and ineffective. If you're publicly posting content, selectively blocking individuals from viewing it will only just slightly annoy them into using a private browsing window. For anyone slightly motivated, that's not a big hurdle. You can mute/ignore on Hive and front-ends handle it well.

Then have something like lock on Twitter or "friends only" on fb; something to where you can not be followed by someone threatening you. If it's public-only, a good chunk of people are not going to feel safe here. Like, DV survivors.

Unfortunately the platform isn't very compatible with too much private communication. There are encrypted memos but this being a blockchain, I don't think it's a good idea to make all nodes perpetually host a bunch of encrypted data meant for a small group or one person to see once and then move on.

That's unfortunate if that's really a limitation of blockchain, in this era of internet bullying/harassment, and again, the people just trying to avoid their abusive ex or something.

It is possible for a Hive-connected service or sidechain to provide something more social and private. But with what we have now, it's not worth the cost.

Look at inji.com by therealwolf. That might be what you're looking for

It's not a limit of the "blockchain", it's only a limit of imagination.

MOST people want to have the option to share their photos and stories with people they know, and not necessarily with the entire planet.

That's why discord is so popular. Each individual has full control over what happens in their "space".

ANY of the "front-ends" (like peakd or hive.blog) could implement an encryption feature that would scramble your posts on the public blockchain and still make them readable for people on your "access list".

Then have something like lock on Twitter or "friends only" on fb

MOST people want to have the option to share their photos and stories with people they know, and not necessarily with the entire planet.

That's why discord is so popular. Each individual has full control over what happens in their "space".

ANY of the "front-ends" (like peakd or hive.blog) could implement an encryption feature that would scramble your posts on the public blockchain and still make them readable for people on your "access list".

The "MUTE" function should automatically trigger the target's "MUTE" back to you.

Basically, a mutual "MUTE" - we could call it "NUKE".

That way, even if they can see your posts by not logging in under that account, they can't leave comments as that account and they can't downvote you as that account. And if they want to move their stake to another account, they can wait 13 weeks, just to get hit with another "MUTE".

The main thing that I think would make this more adoptable by non-techie normies like myself is a "block" option, as that is the one thing I agree could be unsafe.

The "MUTE" function should automatically trigger the target's "MUTE" back to you.

Basically, a mutual "MUTE" - we could call it "NUKE".

That way, even if they can see your posts by not logging in under that account, they can't leave comments as that account and they can't downvote you as that account. And if they want to move their stake to another account, they can wait 13 weeks, just to get hit with another "MUTE".

Really? I didn't know that! That's much better if so.

it does not currently function this way.

i'm proposing that it SHOULD function this way.

OH sorry, I misunderstood.

no problem at all.

thanks for reading and commenting !!

You too! :)
!BEER


Hey @logiczombie, here is a little bit of BEER from @phoenixwren for you. Enjoy it!

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So true!

I'll tell you one thing to add to all you've said: The Crypto Class Action.

Like Hive we've been toiling away in the dark, with little publicity or outside interest.

We are close to a major breakthrough now and one that will drive Hive to much greater prominence.

Banned on Twitter, Youtube, Facebook - we can fix that.

Hive getting no attention - the publicity from the case will showcase Hive - it is a major part of our evidence and important additional damages claim.

But the biggest impact we will have is not even the massive transfer of wealth from Web 2.0 to Web 3.0 that the trillion dollar damages claim will represent.

The biggest impact is that we are going to nuke the Web 2.0 advertising based business model and expose a massive criminal cartel spanning much of online advertising industry.

We are the asteroid that will destroy the Web 2.0 dinosaurs and give sustenance to their Web 3.0 small mammal successors.

This asteroid has been captured by their massive gravity and is speeding silently, inexorably toward them.

Decentralization is still a fairly new and not entirely studied direction in modern technologies. The fact that we are already here, and not just here, but create and read our content, is very cool and promising. Here you can really express your opinion in a letter, and find a lot of interesting people and information. Good post, there is something to think about. Thanks a lot.

I am so tired my friend. My head is spinning 😄... But I see you gaining notoriety and recognized for your strong and precise comments!

Since I am so tired, I will reserve this post for tomorrow. Dan never disappoints and I need a clear well rested head for this man's indepth take on the modern world that many call mirror world. Though, I say the mirror broke a while back and this guy is killing the game with this commentary on it!

Thank you @theycallmedan for supporting my friend here.

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I was so tired last night I thought you were @dandays... Im very sorry @theycallmedan. I just drank my coffee and realize I was commenting half asleep.
Its just my friend was so excited I had to help increase his excitement further with a good comment and upvote too add to the joy.

Im going to have too really read this now!

If I only had a token for every time I was mistaken for a big huge giant whale.

Or when I stumble upon one and not even equating that into the equation when I make comments😅
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I was so tired last night I thought you were @dandays... Im very sorry @theycallmedan. I just drank my coffee and realize I was commenting half asleep.
Its just my friend was so excited I had to help increase his excitement further with a good comment and upvote too add to the joy.

Im going to have too really read this now!

DEMOCRACY is still a fairly new and not entirely studied direction in modern technologies.

Good afternoon. Excuse me please, but I don't know how to comment on this. Perhaps intellectually I am not yet ready to do this, I still need to learn. Have a nice day.

DEMOCRACY = DECENTRALIZED CONTROL

Now I understand. This is already something. Thank you.

P.s. I'm not tagging stuff #hive on twitter. I also feel it goes nowhere if I do that. The Bee Keepers Association of Whereverville must be baffled about why their tweets go nowhere too.

The Bee Keepers Association of Whereverville must be baffled about why their tweets go nowhere too.

That's kind of hilarious.

And oh Dan loved th post, gave last stand vibes!

We are the kink in the chain. We are the unaccounted for. The overlooked, the misunderstood & the underestimated—the underdogs. We are the passion hidden in plain sight. We are the answer tapped to your back. We are here when you never knew you needed us. We march for those that can't walk. We speak for those that can't talk. We shine a light for those that have darkness. Never forget who we are, why we are here, and where we are going. The sticks and stones will turn to dust underneath our consistent stomp. When history is being made, the most important moments are fleeting, underestimated, never knowing how big the ripple effects are. The domino we pushed over as a community has set forth an immutable path, one that cannot be undone. The implications of what we have done here are world-changing, and it's only when saying things like this seem silly do you know how early we truly are.

Fully charged and ready to go! Let's do this! 😁😀

You have our support and never let them sensationalize you.

Twitter isn't that important for adoption. What is important is getting listed on one of the big western exchanges.

Your average Joe doesn't want to go through the hassle of getting verified on multiple exchanges. What they want is just one exchange, and then they'll only buy coins listed on that exchange.

When Hive forked, we ended up with an eastern token (Steem) and a western token (Hive). Steem is listed on all the eastern and Korean exchanges, and when the fork took place, Hive was listed on those exchanges too.

But Hive's user base is Western - the United States, Europe, South America. And it needs to be on one of the big western exchanges like Coinbase or Kraken.

This is even more important as some of the shadier eastern exchanges like Binance are now banned from places like the UK.

Once Hive is listed on a big western exchange, adoption will become much easier. You might need to pay money to get listed - perhaps some of the developer funds can be diverted to achieve that end.

web 2 social is how western exchanges find coins. it's a shame we have been targeted so early in our life to be attacked this heavily. But I'm super bullish on tech that web2 shadow bans.

Hivers, we have dug the hole, and we have planted the seed. If we continue to water, the universe has no choice but to bend to our will and lets us grow as big as our seed allows.

This lines got me,I'm glad I join this family....I have learn a lot and I'm still learning, thanks for This piece.

Haejin enriched his account by doing self-interested voting with his stake. To solve this trending page "problem," STEEM institutionalized self-interested behavior by kicking back a percent of rewards to curators at the expense of taxing the HIVE of content creators. The real world transliteration for this is teaching every millionaire how to be a philanthropist. Steem didn't suppress self-interest. They merely reimagined it on a grander scale.

So congratulations, Steem has effectively caused Haejin to change his ways and adopt the philanthropist model of self-interested behavior. However, now, instead of just him doing it, it's everybody. And again, this philanthropist model of self-interest gets funded by taxing content creators one step after rewards get removed from the rewards pool. In essence, we traded off the so-called "reward pool rape" with reward rape via the 25% (or so) in extra taxation on rewards that get kicked back to curators.

So it was "terruible" when this one guy was "abusing the rewards pool" with his colossal stake in such a way where trending made it perfectly obvious. However, if we can get everyone to do the same thing, one step after the rewards get removed from the pool; Then somehow [..] we fixed something? Also, the idea of liberal downvoting was probably the worst idea ever. Watch 'Community' S05E08, 'Black Mirror' S03E01, and 'The Orville' S01E07; Please go back to the drawing board with that mess.

Either that or find a way to deal with antisocial downvoters. Haejin WAS NOT an antisocial downvoter. I rather have six Haejin's that overtly take from the reward pool based on their stake power. That would be so much more pleasant than the handful of malicious but powerful antisocial downvoters who covertly reward themselves on the taxes of those they upvote as they're running around downvoting people because they don't like their politics. It's those powerful bastards that drive people away and make HIVE the veritable ghostship (anise-flavored) lollypop of social media infamy.

It shouldn't have been that hard to encourage "right" behavior in the first place. Taking CliffsNotes from dystopic science fiction was Steem's first and most colossal mistake. PoB does not work as imagined. Up and downvoting by random people with different amounts of stake-power will never equate to something intelligent. The best we can do is encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior.

Giving everyone a free downvote and encouraging them to use it daily is tantamount to giving everyone a gun and a free daily bullet and encouraging people to use it on others. It was a bogus move and should get rolled back. The UI change with the downvote especially. If voting up, down, or both doesn't amount to an intelligent result (crowd wisdom), then let's stick with the positive curation model—one where you upvote what you enjoy and disregard what you do not. And this emulates the market more accurately. Also, we wouldn't have to rewire the brains of each new person that comes to HIVE. That's not to say get rid of flags, as there are legit use cases for flagging.

Either that or find an intelligent way to censor the downvote power of people who misuse it. There's a reason in a society that we don't let mass shooters run amok, and it's because they go around causing harm, permanent injury, and death. The HIVE equivalent of death is becoming so demoralized by the voting behavior of others that you're willing to interact on platforms run by Zuckerberg, Dorsey, or Wojcicki. Sorry, your rant triggered mine, and there you have it, a dialogue. That's one positive aspect I can speak to about HIVE (the free speech aspect), but I know we can get gud. And if HIVE doesn't want to pave the way, hopefully, the Proof of Brain community will set the standard.

I care much less about the hurt feelings of a handful of malicious downvoters than I do about those whose experience they keep wrecking because they get their jollies off on exercising raw and destructive power to the detriment of the platform. I realize that you are just one guy and that you don't represent the HIVE collective as a whole. Half the reason for posting this comment here is so some of the other influential hearts and minds can read it and resonate with the parts that make sense to them.

Here's an idea, make the downvote function wipe out curation rewards first. If a post is so bad that it didn't deserve an upvote, then pit curator whales against each other where they can null each other's curation rewards. This way, when you have people complaining about malicious downvotes, they'll be powerfully affected, motivated, and influential enough to care about devising a scheme that reduces the reckless downvoting.

I'd much rather see whales have reward fights than watch the platform continue to bleed out the types of content creators that give life and vibrance to the HIVE ecosystem. "The rate of antisocial personality disorder in the general population is estimated between 0.2 and 3.3 percent." So here's the trolly problem. Create a DV censorship scheme whereby a stakeholder can get their DV power suspended for a period if they abuse their power would frustrate a whole 0.2 - 3.3 percent of HIVE-folk. However, that's not nearly as troublesome as their actions.

Haejin was spam posting 10x a day and 100% self voting with stake that does not belong to him. That behavior has changed to voting various authors.

That was the standard before the change of 25/75 and Free Dvs; instead of people voting others, they either sold their vote or self voted. Now people vote for others because it's more profitable. Now I even said PoB is not finished in my post and that DVs could clearly be looked at and reworked a bit.

In any system, people will always do what is best for them. That is why Bitcoin is so effective because it pays better to do good than bad. If on Bitcoin it paid better to do badly than good, we wouldn't have a Bitcoin; it would have died a long time ago. So no matter what you do in these systems, you need to put self-interest above all else, and that self-interest has to be in the best interest of the community. You incentivize doing good, reward that behavior the best, and reduce/penalize abuse. It's that simple with these governance models if you play on human virtue, the good actors get diluted by the bad actors and eventually become irrelevant.

I'll respond to your DV issues later today, as this is a long post that requires a long answer if I want to debate you on this topic.

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whew!!!! Well! I did my best to Rank the Comments in this post Dan! It meant taking the last hour or so to read through every comment!

Annnnnd WOW! Did I ever learn a lot! There's so much relevant conversation on this post that I am walking away with plenty to think about over the night!

Most of the conversations were VERY productive and it does give me hope for the future of Hive to read the comments of people who care deeply about the success of our Blockchain. We aren't just investors or users (aka consumers) we truly are formingUP into a bunch of battle tested and brilliant OWNERS!

That's why all of this (what we are doing every day on Hive!) matters so much I think.

Thank you so much for taking the time to think about the content and then put this post into written thought... and Dan! Thank you for being relevant! So many big stake holders aren't... They aren't listening and that only compounds risk and unfriendliness throughout the blockchain we care so much about.

You are one of the best and that's why we all love you and everything your doing to strengthen Hive and it's community.

Have a wonderful day!

@wil.metcalfe


To the rest of the Comet Ranker Crew! Dan's post has officially been ⭕️ Targeted by @Comet.Ranker! I am really looking forward to coming back to this post to read all of your Impactful thoughts, insights, and questions for Dan and the other contributors (in the comment section!) to this post and it's conversations! Happy Commenting Everybody!!! ☄️

Whether anyone will hear me is irrelevant.

Not really, to be honest. There is no point in speaking to people, if no one hear you. If no one hear you, then that being equivavelent to be silenced. To be censored.

What good is the freedom of speech, if no one hear what you say?

Stake-based systems are the future of web 3. There will be only 1 mass adopted PoW coin, and Bitcoin (BTC) has an almost insurmountable lead vs. the next PoW coin.

Unfortunately yes. Even Twitter has plans to integrate Bitcoin into their services.

The system forced even someone who I believe hates Hive would love to see it burn, still help the network with good behavior because it's the most optimal.

I would not say Haejin ever hated Hive (but maybe I missed something). Quite the opposite. He loved to milk it in the past, while now he is a curator. It is very interesting and very good to see this big and good change in his behavior. He was selfish and greedy, but that alone does not mean that he hated Hive.

I've seen him upvote people he clearly detests, which is an amazing sign for this PoB in practice. If you can achieve this, you have done something truly rare and is quite the accomplishment. And we are not even done tweaking PoB yet.

This is certain.

Self-respect is easily swallowed by some when money is on the table.

Many people do stupid and fake things for money. It is enough to take a look at YouTube to see tons of paid reviews and paid promotions. People say "good" about bad products, just/only for the money.

If no one hear you, then that being equivavelent to be silenced. To be censored.

It's the potential for people to listen. If I say my words, and anyone can hear them but no one chooses to, I'm at peace. If I say my words, and no one can ever hear them because outside forces are suppressing my voice, I have a big problem with that.

What good is the freedom of speech, if no one hear what you say?

That is what I asked in the comment above.

Well stated.

Glad to see you talking about proof of brain. It's for sure a great concept. I like how it's still implimented on the blockchain. I don't think that we may get rid of it. In fact the blockchain is full of proofs. I always write about them. Everything we do here is to prove something. That's why most people like it here. The more I think about proofs the more I find them. Even curating is a proof, even commenting, even thinking and everything. So, in fact hive is not only about proof of stake. We have so many proofs and we will have more.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Yo Dan, what's happening with your stolen steem tokens? Bittrex is still holding them hostage?

Yep. We should know more the court case is in Sept. but it may be pushed back.

This post did a great job explaining tokens, a storied past with a notorious whale, provided great hope and inspiration!

These words from you gave me goosebumps!

  • You can't censor me here. My words live forever here. So, I will speak to them to the fullest extent. I am the tree in the forest. Whether anyone will hear me is irrelevant. I'm here, and I remain, and so what I've built and spoken. Give me that, my planted seeds, and one day they will grow. I will continue to apply the pressure, remain consistent, and not voluntarily budge an inch. I don't care what your agenda is. The moment my freedoms are being threatened for whatever reason, I will resist, I will innovate, and I will build out of whatever hole I'm thrown in. The most important thing is to speak your truth, your mind, your words are yours, they belong to you, and it is our natural right to have the ability to be heard.

I want to speak on other things you brought up but you did a spectacular job and I agree anyways with everything you said and learned a lot about what I didn't know on tokens.

Hive is my primary crypto investment. I cant imagine logistically investing my time or energy elsewhere in this capacity of mining crypto with the brain... Or of course large stake powered up and the HBD savings wallet!

So thanks for assuring me that im at the right place with Hive.

Now here we are, no centralized backing, no founder, and we are figuring this out together.

It will take time for people to understand that they can work without "reporting" to anyone.

So some very surprising news. I actually understood almost everything you had to say about Hive in comparison to other crypto-currencies.

See, I am one of those who joined the blockchain to learn about crypto and blogging for that matter. Now for younger folks who grew up with computers and Smartphones this might not be a big deal but for anyone my age who still has some white-out somewhere in my desk this is a big deal!

If the original idea of the blockchain was to be an introduction into crypto and the power of the future, I can now say that I am a seed that has at least broke forth from the ground and I am growing towards the sky. :)

I had stopped using hashtags now I just post for better reach in twitter. @theycallmedan
Maybe tweets are auto shadow banned But Don't know completely about process. Poshtoken are also now less useful😅

Hive price is doomed to never significantly appreciate so long we are paying the salaries of dozens of bloggers without any real reason to buy the hive

Big Facts!

It's just wild how far some will go for power. And all the while assuring us that they mean well, they are trying to take even more for themselves :( ...

I am guessing that the big players will try to get all of the BTC possible - but in the end, the hodlers of BTC will make a fortune? And then create more crypto :)

Bitcoin isnt stake based so no one can change the protocol on chain just by having a ton of btc. You would need a lot of hashrate, but with BTC marketcap being so large, that its asking a lot of an attacker to destroy their own investment as it's better to be greedy than destructive in PoW mining. Of course a rogue nation could attempt but it would be rather obvious where the influx of nasty hashrate is coming from, and could be legal issues for rogue governments attacking BTC at this point due to how many legitimate hodlers there are.

A country such as China, The US, Russia, etc could make things hard? Remember, not so long ago the United States called crypto a threat to national security :(

Bitcoin isnt stake based so no one can change the protocol on chain just by having a ton of btc.

The major issue here is not knowing who is shadow banned; if you silence somehow, you need to tell the world at least. Creating fake viral narratives and silencing others, and acting as if it's the free market's doing leads to very bad outcomes.

HIERARCHY VERSUS DECENTRALIZED LAW

Who needs Twitter? 😁

I don't quite understand this stuff I definitely need time to read these things. but i will always support hive and everyone hehe

That one deserves an upvote with !LUV !BEER and !PIZZA ❤️🍺🍕

@networkallstar, sorry. :(

You can call the LUV bot a maximum of 10 times per day. To give more each day, check LUV Levels.

@networkallstar, ¡lo siento!

Puedes llamar al bot PIZZA un máximo de 10 veces al día.


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Hey @theycallmedan, here is a little bit of BEER from @networkallstar for you. Enjoy it!

Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your BEER.

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Check out the last post from @hivebuzz:

Hive Power Up Day - August 1st 2021 - Hive Power Delegation

Amazing post, yes I read every comment. I came to hive via nftshowroom so am just learning how it all works. And its history. In fact i came to this post looking for the story of steem/hive as snippets are all over, and after this post its importance in shaping hive is even more fundamental than I had thought.
As we are losing our freedom in Sydney, its ironic I am settling on a chain that values freedom as much as I do. I still dont know the precise details of the steem story, but as I just read a better one, Ill look for it another day.
freedom2mg.gif