Remember when @Blocktrades explained how a fork is not theft and you ate that shit up like it was candy?

in #informationwar6 months ago

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https://peakd.com/cryptocurrency/@blocktrades/the-legal-basis-of-cryptocurrency-forks

No? Do you not remember?

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One claim I’ve seen recently is that someone who creates a fork that doesn’t include another user’s stake has infringed on that other user’s property rights and is therefore liable for harming that other user. But, in my opinion, this is a flawed analysis due to a basic misunderstanding of cryptocurrency operation and/or the value of cryptocurrency itself.

Wow @blocktrades, good point! Tell me more!

If someone creates a fork that doesn’t contain a user’s stake from a previous fork of the software, the user who “lost” his stake can simply start another version of the software on his own computer that still has his stake (he creates a fork where his stake still counts) and optionally convince others to run his version that has his stake, instead of the fork that doesn’t have his stake.

Yep! They sure can, can't they!?

In the above scenario, there are now two cryptocurrency forks running on separate computer networks. In this case, both coins may or may not have value: it solely depends on whether other people are willing to accept the coins from either network in exchange for other goods. This is one of the really interesting things about cryptocurrency: valuations are set purely by the users, and this means that people are able to voluntarily decide what currency has value and what people they want to associate with via the mechanism of cryptocurrency exchange.

Wow! Very Interesting!

You might say the value of a cryptocurrency is based on layer zero!

A lot of those who argued with me on my last post do not seem to understand this obvious fact. We think that Steem HF23 is theft and Hive is not because Steem is an "old asset" and Hive is a "new asset" "airdrop".

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What a load of shit!

If the value of a crypto is based on layer zero, then Hive is the old asset and Steem is the new asset. You think Steem is the old asset because they kept the same corporate brand name with a completely gutted network that we scooped? I thought it was Sun doing all the mental gymnastics, but god damn we are getting close to his level.

Do you know what LLC means?

Limited Liability Corporation

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JUSTIN SUN THIS JUSTIN SUN THAT HE STOLE THIS WE SHOULD SUE HIM OMFG THEFT!!!!!!!!11111

No, that's not how it works.
Wake up to the reality of this situation.

Inc. is the abbreviation for incorporated. An incorporated company, or corporation, is a separate legal entity from the person or people forming it. Directors and officers purchase shares in the business and have responsibility for its operation. Incorporation limits an individual's liability in case of a lawsuit.

We can't go after Justin Sun; we'd have to go after Steemit Incorporated. Guess what? No one gives a shit about Steemit Inc. Justin Sun can dump Steem to zero anytime he wants, claim he got hacked, and declare bankruptcy of Steemit Inc without losing one goddamn dollar.

GET WITH THE FUCKING PROGRAM, WE CAN NOT WIN HERE!

We should all be thanking our lucky stars that we were even able to get a single dollar out of the Steem blockchain after Hive was created. Now we want to make the claim that the exact thing that Hive just did is theft? Are we stupid?

Seriously this blind rage the Hive network is experiencing even after winning the governance war is frustrating as shit. We won. Let Steem do whatever the fuck Steem wants to do. That illegitimate governance structure was bought out by an imperialist capitalist piece of shit. Now you want to go toe to toe with him on his own turf? Good luck with that!

Justin Sun knows how the law works. Justin Sun has lawyers and more money than you. Justin Sun is hiding behind shell corporations. Don't be a fucking idiot. I AM SO GOD DAMN TILTED RIGHT NOW IT IS UNBELIEVABLE.

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@apshamilton is giving this network poor legal advice

I'm going to fix his legal advice, pro bono:

There is substantial evidence that such accounts were directly controlled by Justin Sun Steemit Inc.

I will not examine this evidence in detail here because it is sufficient to demonstrate that Justin Sun Steemit Inc controls @dev365.

It was by these actions that Justin Sun Steemit Inc took singlehanded control of the Steem blockchain and reversed the soft fork which had temporarily suspended witness voting rights of accounts owned by Steemit Inc (which had never previously voted on witnesses).

Shoot, have I not written a post about how corporations have more rights than people do and they protect the criminals in charge of them? Well consider this your first lesson!

Did you know that if you work on a project for a single second on the job then the corporation you work for owns that entire project and all the IP? You guys ever see the TV show Silicon Valley? It happened there, and it's a real thing. I also signed a paper when I took the job at Amazon saying as much. Here... let me go find it...

Confidentiality And Invention Assignment agreement.

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Here is a prime example of how corporations have more rights than people. If you own a corporation it protects you and legally enslaves the employees. Pretty sweet deal, amirite?

Ten years from now...

Everyone who disagreed with me about this subject is going to look quite foolish. How many DPOS forks do you think are going to happen in the next ten years?

The ignorance being displayed here will be immortalized on the blockchain for all to see. I will point back to this discussion to show everyone that I understood DPOS before everyone else did.

Go me! I'm awesome!

Can you see how this is a zero-risk situation for me? In ten years, no one is going to go back and say, "Hey! Look at this stupid shit @edicted said a decade ago! Haha what an moron!" Meanwhile, if I'm right, I get to say, "Hey look at me, I was right and EVERYONE ELSE WAS WRONG." Hedge your bets, gentlemen!

I am right.

Dozens of DPOS forks (the community-split variety) are going to occur. DPOS is even more prone to forking due to the built-in republic governance structure. If any two big groups have a big disagreement, there will for sure be a fork. What is the outcome of said fork?

The outcome is obvious.

One side will fork away the stake from the other, the other side will do the same. This will happen over and over and over and over again, and every time it happens, I'll be there reminding everyone that they didn't know what the fuck they were talking about when it came to the Steem/Hive split.

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All of us on Hive are trying to have the cake and eat it too. We want to extract maximum value out of Steem because fuck them, amirite? Yeah well, we can't have it both ways. If we do not validate Steem sovereignty; if Steem is a shitcoin centralized worthless database with no intrinsic value... THEN HOW THE FUCK COULD THEY HAVE POSSIBLY STOLEN ANYTHING FROM YOU?

The solution to Steem HF23 "theft" is a fork. We already did that fork. No one is going to put the work in to do it again. We already won.

Conclusion

Do you think Steem HF23 is theft? You're wrong, and even if you're not wrong, your argument is irrelevant and can only hurt this network.

We punked Justin Sun hard. We've been coding circles around him and it has been a joy to watch. However, now that we are talking about legal action, we have entered his domain. It's one thing to shoot a lion with a rifle on the open field at 200 yards, but would you follow that same lion into his den if he escaped?

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DO NOT WALK INTO THE LION'S DEN!

Every single DPOS layer zero split from now until the end of time will have both sides forking away each other's stake. That is a fact. That's how it works. That is the standard. If you can't see this fact for what it is, I don't know what to tell you. The precedence is clear.

Speaking of precedence, by continuing this legal crusade against Justin Sun we put our own network at risk. By proving a fork is theft we prove that the Hive witnesses stole funds. Hive was not an airdrop; Hive was not free money; Hive was not a "new asset".

HIVE IS THE ORIGINAL CHAIN WITH THE ORIGINAL COMMUNITY.

It is clear as day to see that Steem is in fact the new asset shit-coin, everyone knows it deep down, but they see this "theft" and become blinded by rage. The mental gymnastics being implemented here are legendary, especially after the great lengths @blocktrades went through to convince you all that a fork is not theft.

We should be extremely thankful that we were allowed to leech as much value from Steem as we did. Chalk it up to those noobs having no idea what they were doing. However, there is no way to extract any more value. If you legally force Steemit Inc (NOT JUSTIN SUN) to return funds to Hive whales/witnesses, he's just going to give you back your worthless shit tokens. He will dump the value to zero and you'll still lose everything. What is the point of continuing a war that we already won?

There is nothing to gain.

It's a liability.

He's going to counter-sue you: duh.

Are you ready for that? (hint: you aren't)

Yes, Steemit Inc is engaging in securities fraud.

No, there isn't a goddamn thing you can do about it.
Get over it.
We already won.
Forks are not theft.

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Hive is our government; don't go begging to the SEC like a chump.

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It is up to the individuals impacted by HF23 to take action. Sonce I am not one of those individuals I cannot.

I've already mentioned why HF23 is different than Hive. Hive is a taxable event in the IS and HF23 isn't. This is the basis of why one was theft and the other wasn't.

If we want cryptocurrencies to gain legitimacy and the mainstream use and value that comes with it, we will be wise to follow existing laws to some degree.

Steemit is an LLC and the sockpuppets are controlled by Steemit. Justin Sun privately owns the company which means he is liablento decisions made by it. In fact he could see jail time if he willfully uses the company to break the law.

It's not a public corporatiion where board members are elected, even though dpos may make it seem like this. Steemit's mistake was voting. Justin will have a difficult time explaining this wasn't his sole decision and responsibility.

He could also be forced to use Steemit inc assets to pay compensation, fortunately Steemit INC has ~60 million Steem to easily cover the ~20million.

When you read the Steemit Inc privacy policy and TOS they recognize certain obligations. This gives people hints at which legal entities they recognize. New York comes up a lot and New York has some good laws (good for the people who were victimized, not for Justin).

I've already mentioned why HF23 is different than Hive. Hive is a taxable event in the IS and HF23 isn't. This is the basis of why one was theft and the other wasn't.

Very nice, this is the most compelling argument that anyone has made by a huge margin.
You are bringing a lot to the table here.

I guess the real question going forward is whether it is theft if both sides are decentralized.
There's also the question about whether it matters or not.
I would argue it doesn't matter because decentralized entities are highly resistant to litigatigation.

We have heard a lot of people say Steem is barely decentralized. Also I think it is a bit of a strech to even call Hive decentralized (It's just more decentralized than steem).

You are right if the platform was truly decentralized, it would be harder for governments to hold it accountable. But we could end up with them just making it illegal. If that happens, it won't be popular.

Also, people can still steal from decentralized entities. For example, there is 63million Hive in the dao account. If the witnesses just decided to suddently divide it amongst themselves in a quick hardfork, we would probably take actio. This is also why I think if Bittrex just goes with the Steem consensus, they could be breaking the law.

A good example from the non-crypto world is populism, or tyranny of the majority. Even legitimate democratic states break international law all the time.

For example, there is 63million Hive in the dao account. If the witnesses just decided to suddently divide it amongst themselves

It frustrates me that users here don't realize this money is a Red Herring.
They could just as easily destroy it and create other coins out of thin air and gift it to themselves.

Wolf has even advocated that we get rid of author rewards all together and turn those rewards into a token. God I hate that douche. He wants the witnesses to control all the inflation of Hive. Everything he does caters to the elite here.

I completely agree. I just bring it up because it is tangible. There is also the argument that it was created for development and maintenance. It's rational to assume it will be destoryed or used for its intended purpose. I can't say the same for the infinite amount of Hive that could just be forked into existence.

I guess another way to look at it is to consider BTC where all the inflation goes to miners. Maintaining the network just gets transaction fees.

Hive has 20% of the inflation going to maintenance and development as it stands and no transaction fee (there is RC, but it is renewable). Finds need to be used appropriately.

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Did somebody mention 'litigatigation'?

I've already mentioned why HF23 is different than Hive. Hive is a taxable event in the IS and HF23 isn't. This is the basis of why one was theft and the other wasn't.

never thought about this, but if this is true (an it sounds that it is) you just won this argument :D

also the fact that one account is in full control of what is going on on steem does not help them.
think @edicted commented somewhere below that @freedom stopped voting was a smart thing from his side.

the thing that manager and owner of LLC are responsible for what LLC does is true, and they could end up in jail for things they did. From what i seen in my country most of the time most blame usually goes to the manager, except in cases where manager can prove that owner knew everything that was done.
LLC just means that you can't "take" owners private house because his LLC owns you money.

Yes. I am shocked about people who think corporations can do whatever they want. They are just a 'legal person' when it comes to the account. If I break the law on your behalf, I'm still criminally liable.

Shareholders have to be careful when voting for something illegal. Stealing is a fairly obvious crime. Just because you have the ability to steal (consensus witnesses can hardfork the chain), doesn't make it right.

It's obvious to me, but shocking to see home many people just accept tyranny of the consensus as legitimate. The actions were illegitimate. If Steemit consinutes to donwhat they want, it serves no one else's interest amd gives all dpos, pos, even crypto a bad name.

"It's not a public corporatiion where board members are elected..."

This is a critical difference in how stockholders of corporations are liable under law. IANAL, but case law has widely differed due to this difference in ownership.

Yes you are right. Generally LLC means owners aren't responsible for financial obligations, the corporation is. However, owners or acting managers are still responsible for crimes. Theft is a crime.

Exactly, absolutely everything else is either irrelevant or without any merit to the matter at hand: Theft is Theft.

Do you think Steem HF23 is theft?

No, but Steem 23 is a inefficient, insecure database. The real question is when Hive wants to stop being one as well.

You're another retardo especially, theft is theft. Think more next time.

The coins are still there on the database. Just fork Steem from right before the 23.0 fork and everybody can get their coins back. That new fork would be the legitimate chain, but I don't see anyone putting any work in that direction because it is easier to complain.

But continue with the circular statements. You have proved and accomplished nothing.

The coins are still there on the database. Just fork Steem from right before the 23.0 fork and everybody can get their coins back.

So the coins are still there, except that they aren't, except that the coins only exist in a point in time that is irrelevancy itself, a place that exists only conceptually because in reality, those coins are gone, as is evidenced by exploring the current state of the network.

That new fork would be the legitimate chain, but I don't see anyone putting any work in that direction because it is easier to complain.

Except that it would require the chain to do the unthinkable and forget about witnesses, forget about the rule set that defines the state, and to simply be recompiled by a rogue element that having neither the stake to legitimize their fork before the rest of the network nor the capacity to actually run the fork, but regardless, they will be the legitimate chain, because. No. The theft is not a system glitch that can be rolled back, and no, the chain will not be recognized at all as legitimate if transactions are nullified so that it can be rolled back, and no, that will not bring back the coins in any useful capacity. The fact that you're calling people lazy for adamantly opposing the inane notions that nothing was lost or that no theft happened only posits you as a tool, a moronic nonthought, and says absolutely nothing about me, only about you, mainly that to you, Theft is a matter of debate, to you, stressing that Theft is Theft, is actually a circular logic. No moron, Theft is Theft isn't any kind of argument, it's a way to emphasize that IT IS THEFT.

Except that it would require the chain to do the unthinkable and forget about witnesses, forget about the rule set that defines the state, and to simply be recompiled by a rogue element that having neither the stake to legitimize their fork before the rest of the network nor the capacity to actually run the fork, but regardless, they will be the legitimate chain, because.

What do you think about the Hive blockchain, which is itself a fork of Steem and which utilizes the exact same mechanics (and essentially code) as HF23?

What do I think about it in regards to what? Their capacity to exist? It seems you think that there is no theft, no massive, unprecedented stealing of funds, you seem to actually think that the theft is no different from a fork, and that it should be a matter of forming a whole other asset but not really because you seem to think that the blockchain can simply be rolled back, state protocol and consensus be damned, just assume a magical "go back" button or whatever you think the 'solution' is, but certainly not stating that a massive fraud, a grand theft has occurred.

You wouldn't rollback HF23, you would restart the chain running Steem 22.X and use that as a starting point. The blockchain isn't being roll-backed, it would be resumed at the point where the alternative chain HF23 is split off. That's how forks work in Proof-of-Stake blockchains. If you consider Steem 23 as the official chain based off of consensus than you are admitting that Proof-of-Stake chains are terribly weak at securing people's money. If we have to "obey" consensus like folks like yourself seem so interested in doing, then sure, the Steem "community" agreed to "steal" from the particular subset of forks that had their tokens moved from their accounts.

The point is that if you go against consensus, the very mechanism that is used to sign blocks and secure the transactions within then what's the point of doing it when the mechanism is fully capable of simply repeating it once again, besides to nullify all transactions since the hf. I'm not saying that consensus means we can steal or murder, because consensus isn't above property rights. Holding those who stole accountable seems like the best solution, the problem is that there's no real way to do it but it's not outside the realm of possibility to hold the witnesses accountable in whichever jurisdiction they are in over the implicit function they agreed to by seeking to be a witness and secure the network and all that it entailed. There's nothing "interpretive" about the theft, and consensus is never above the function it is designed and intended to accomplish, after all, private property rights is all crypto is concerned with.

Did you know that if you work on a project for a single second on the job

Not just ON the job, but during the time of employment. So basically, your PISS belongs to Amazon, unless it was entirely on your own time, on your own devices. And even then, some are not so lucky, unless it was entirely on your own time, on your own devices. And even then, some are not so lucky.

Indeed, when I reread what I signed just now I was like... WHAT THE FUCK?!?! There is an UNLESS clause even if it was all on my own time... LOL! Highlighted in red.

Damn UNLESS clause.

When I watched the Silicon Valley episode that referenced this law I was like,

Ha! That can't be a real thing.

It was very much a real thing :(

I couldn't believe it either. Saw the same episode. And have had people in the same situation.

I won't try to deal with all the errors in this humorous but flawed analysis.

  1. LLC won't protect from criminal conspiracy charges. Courts often look behind the corporate veil even in civil cases these days and in criminal matters there is no veil at all.

  2. While community is the ultimate source of value of any currency the law does not recognise people as assets (slavery was banned long ago). In contrast things like exchange listings, coin name, retained marketing IP, retained founder support, retained web front ends etc ARE recognised by the law as determinative of which is the existing asset and which is the new one in the case of real forks like Steem / Hive. The IRS has even published something confirming this.

  3. A "fork" that just changes the code of an existing blockchain without there being two genuinely continuing blockchains being run separately is NOT A FORK AT ALL in legal terms (and normal usage of the English language). It is just a code change to an existing blockchain.

  4. You should always have a lawyer negotiate your contractor agreements for you with particular attention to IP clauses like the one you extracted above. I've negotiated 100s of such contracts in my time and I always limit over-broad IP ownership clauses. Perhaps if you were nicer to lawyers you wouldn't get shafted so much :-)

Perhaps if you were nicer to lawyers you wouldn't get shafted so much :-)

That almost resulted in me having to clean #beer off my keyboard!

#4 is insulting for someone who lives paycheck to paycheck.
None of these people can afford lawyers at any price.

It's cool to see that an actual lawyer thinks we have a shot...
I'll believe it when I see it.
We're dealing with the crypto mafia here.
I think you're underestimating them.

Again, this is a Web 2.0 vs Web 3.0 issue.
You are thinking on a Web 2.0 wavelength.
Thing will be completely different when crypto takes over.

I fully agree with you, we won, just we need to forget steem

What's steem?

What's that second word you wrote? Did your cat stumble on your keyboard?

He misspelt steam.

But Mr. Tron said he didn't do it.
He, nor steemit, worked on the HF.

Soooo, even if it was theft, Mr. Tron didn't do it... (he said so)

It is really hard to not look at this as theft.
However, the correct wording would be there are now three chains.

Steem(old) Steem(justin) & HIVE

Steem(old) has lost server support, and is no longer really functioning.

So, we have Steem(justin) & HIVE left.

And so, we have securities fraud... but we also have no legal recourse that will gain anything.
And that is the way of distributed blockchains.

I'm trying to figure out how it's not theft, but it is securities fraud.

Because its backwards.

The STEEM is still there in all servers running HF-22

And, if those steemians still wanted that steem, they could go run servers to support HF-22
However the servers who mean anything are all running HF-23

So, there is three blockchains. STEEM (old), STEEM (justin), HIVE

So, the same thing that HIVE did, fork the chain and start their own servers
is what Justin did, fork the chain and start his own servers.

The only thing confusing is that Justin kept the name "STEEM"
So, everyone is confused that STEEM(old) had steem in those accounts, and STEEM(justin) doesn't, so it was a theft.

What is more appropriate to say is that the STEEM you knew is now DEAD!

Thanks. Mind if I highlight your response on my show this afternoon? at 4pm mst

Sorry, i do not know your show. I do not get to watch much video (internets problems).

I said the thing as clearly as i could, trying to convey the truth as i see it, and as such will like it to go to as many people who also want to hear it.

I agree, except:

imperialist capitalist piece of shit

*communist

capitalism means free markets and freedom of contract
we actually have corporatism which is nearer to socialism/communism and planned economy (cuz every single fucking shit is regulated - even the base, the money is PLAIN PLANNED) than to capitalism (free markets)

capitalism means free markets

That is just a bullshit story invented by people who want to decide your fate.

Capitalism has created a system that does things like turn a relatively harmless virus into global marshal law with enforced 27/7 tracking, enforced vaccinations, enforced micro chipping on and on, none of which are beneficial to the general public, in fact all those things are severely detrimental to the public.
It has created a Global Reserve Banking system owned by a hand full of people designed to take possession of everything, have a look at what is going on in the markets! the Reserve Banks are buying up and reposessing everything they can. This Plandemic has been designed to disposes any and all opposition.
Free market is just a meaningless phrase

lol yea, free markets have created a bank monpol, tell me more

Yeah, the fantastic theory that markets outside black markets weren't controlled by government and cartels.

alright
continue obeying

Sure will, thank you for permitting me to, fuck I didn't mean to pun, o yeah:

Freeeeee Markets. (Meaningless phrase where 1 out of 3 jobs require permission).

lol that's exactly the point why we don't have free markets
not even for money - basically for nothing (except illegal)
cuz free markets are criminalized

No, because free markets are an idea that doesn't mean jack shit, a rallying call for a threat that never existed. If free markets existed, criminality itself would ruin it before daybreak, cartels would form in an instant and the only fool at the table would be you and all such idiots.

@asimpleman I think most people don't have a clue what you are talking about. One of the reasons is "programming" of kids in school.

Yes I somehow picked up some alternative programming along the way.

You talk too much.

Words are for chumps.

If what BlockTrades and you say are correct that stake can be stripped at any time by a fork, that would make any investment into this foolish. Curious, since this is your take on it, why you believe anyone in their right mind would ever invest one penny that could be taken at any moment by a thief?

Edited to also ask, do you also see that exchanges will get tired of the new fork side chain shit that this would necessitate. Granted, most would just be fucked out of their holdings, but some who have means like those who forked Hive would be able to. At some point the exchanges would grow tired of such a game.

If what BlockTrades and you say are correct that stake can be stripped at any time by a fork, that would make any investment into this foolish.

Whose value was stripped? Everyone like me that hunkered down and defended the network got paid out FAT. I bought so much Steem at 20 cents and below, and then all that value got copied to Hive. This was like the best thing to happen EVER EVER EVER. We've been in the news for months and we set precedence that DPOS is resistant to money attack, even when 70 MILLION coins were bought at a discount under the table.

Money can't be stolen from you, because the overwhelming consensus of the network is that would be fucked up and another fork would happen and we'd all make a shit load of money all over again while the attackers would get burned. Attacking this community didn't drain value, it created it. That should be incredible to everyone... it certainly is to me.

Whose value was stripped? Everyone like me that hunkered down and defended the network got paid out FAT

Those who were the target of the latest fork were stripped, many of whom are responsible for that FAT payout. While it looks for now like for many of us it indeed is the

best thing to happen EVER EVER EVER.

I imagine that those who had large amounts stolen in that fork might disagree.

Money can't be stolen from you, because the overwhelming consensus of the network is that would be fucked up and another fork would happen and we'd all make a shit load of money all over again while the attackers would get burned.

This is the disconnect in our views too. I think it was incredible what the group who put this together were able to pull off. I've read of several splits since joining and they all are worth shit with no community. What if they hadn't pulled it off this time? What if this incredible value hadn't occurred? But they still had their assets stripped from them?

This idea that forks can strip wallets of their holdings and it is to be accepted, and perhaps celebrated raises the hair on the back of my neck. One can't assume that there will always be a new fork to rectify if this were to happen. Or that the new fork would hold any value if it did. The precedent being set here that it's okay to take others assets because code says so should scare many from ever reaching into their wallet to buy in.

To play devils advocate here, suppose Hive wasn't created, or it was and it flopped as I suspected it would as I never envisioned us getting on exchanges of note. What would your take be then on say someone like Dan losing the million he paid out of pocket to buy in? Would your view on this getting a pass still stand? Or if he forked all of our stake out and there was no Hive?

Done beating this dead horse, you really don't have to answer. This whole thing sits so wrong with me, and while I came out better than before, no way can I not see that the 64 accounts in question weren't fucked and it isn't right. Not mad at you, although the tone might suggest it. Just mad at this idea that code would allow for theft being considered correct.

I think Vitalik said it best when he realized stake literally has to be nullified on DPOS because coins directly determine governance. If a DPOS chain is under attack or if a contentious governance split happens coins must be nullified on both sides in order to split the communities. Hive changed their distribution as well and I don't see you talking about that "theft" much.

When a POW coin forks it isn't the stake that matters; it is the hash power.
This is what secures the network. With DPOS stake directly secures the network.

The fact of the matter is that users who had their balances nullified (on both sides) need to accept their "losses". The users on Steem that got forked out on HF23 have still netted an extremely positive gain regardless of the frozen/siphoned accounts.

To pose this question of "Well, what if there wasn't a fork?" is absurd. What if there was no such thing as blockchain tomorrow? What if pigs could fly? This hypothetical situation does not exist in the realm of possibility. If Hive didn't exist when HF23 rolled around, HF23 would have automatically created Hive. There is no question about it. Now you're asking me what if Hive didn't exist when Hive is the whole reason HF23 exists? Like, I can't take that seriously. Hive CREATED HF23. We should be glad we were able to exit as much as we did because they are incompetent.

If anything, this should be a great example for you about why everyone should hold Bitcoin: because it is the most secure network with the absolute highest chance that none of this bullshit would ever happen there. Bitcoin forks; everyone gets coins.

I kind of feel like you two should come on my show today and duke it out. I would love to hear the debate. Both valid points. Both smart guys. Both know more than I do. Lemme know if interested. I'm on Hive Discord.

Appreciate the compliment, but will decline. I'm not much of a being on a show guy (would rather write a lengthy mini book here on the chain), and said pretty much everything I had to say on this here. While Edicted and myself differ in what we are seeing here, I don't view our differences as something to duke it out about. In many ways I consider him a mentor of sorts, as I've learned so much from his perspectives and zeal to share his knowledge here. Many who write on Hive come across as the writing is a chore they must endure to get a reward. It is always refreshing to read a post that has so much personality and eagerness to share in it, especially when it is packed with useful information. I appreciate his willingness to encourage dialogue on his post that at times might be contrary to his own. As I promised, last word on his blog was his. No need for the difference of opinion to become a back and forth with regurgitated positions. At the end of the day, neither of our views will likely influence this play as it unfolds, and not worth creating undue friction over it. All was said that was needed, and now I will go back to enjoying his sharing and at times learning from it. :)

On a side note, I hope all is well with your dad. I have worried about his health, and missed his presence here on the chain for some time.

I appreciate his dialogue as well. I loved having him on the show, and we missed having you there! My debates are always very friendly and super non-confrontational. It was a good show. But I can understand why you wouldn't wanna make it a "thing". I'm sure he'll appreciate your perspective.

My dad is back and forth on the health issue, but is doing well overall. Thanks for asking! I miss his writing on here. Ineed to get him set up. Tried a week or so ago, but he's out of state, and the new hive signer can be a beast.

@edicted I don't see your account name on the list of accounts that had their Steem stolen. Perhaps you should be a bit more sensitive to the victims of a serious crime.

Its nice to hear you bought in at 20c. Some of the victims bought Steem at $4.00!
Some of the victims are accounts that have never been posted or commented and others have been inactive for 2 years.

There are plenty of completely innocent bystanders that got killed in the Steem witnesses drive-by shooting of the Hive witnesses (who themselves have done nothing illegal).

@edicted I don't see your account name on the list of accounts that had their Steem stolen.

I was going to mention as much but I forgot.

I would have said something like:

The true test would be if I said it wasn't theft and I had my funds taken.


Then again, at the same time, I'm gonna be sorry for someone who made a bunch of money? No one has lost anything in terms of USD value and ANY Steem whatsoever that got cashed out was pure unexpected profit. You can't run around claiming Steem is a worthless centralized trash pile while also claiming they stole from you.

Yes you can, in fact one is very contingent on the other being true, they aren't exclusive by any means, and Theft is Theft, it doesn't matter the valuation, it's a matter of property rights.

do you also see that exchanges will get tired of the new fork side chain shit that this would necessitate.

Not sure what you are talking about. The only coins that are going to be listed are Hive and Steem, and that's fine. Both chains had a contentious governance disagreement, and because governance is based on stake they were forced to nullify each other's stake. Everything is fine. I see no problem.

A lot of those who argued with me on my last post do not seem to understand this obvious fact. We think that Steem HF23 is theft and Hive is not because Steem is an "old asset" and Hive is a "new asset" "airdrop".

Why wouldn't it matter that Hive is decentralized whereas Steem is controlled by a single entity?

That said, I don't like running to the authorities to clear this up. The courts are a lottery machine and who knows what incredibly harmful shit might come out.

Oh, it DEFINITELY MATTERS. Any centralized entity will be slapped with security fraud. I wish @blocktrades all the best on that front... I think they're solid... although I guess it's @freedom that has the most stake and that account is a complete mystery to the network.

I'm starting to think there's a very good reason why @freedom stopped voting on governance.
At a time like this that would be a big NONO.

Thanks for the fresh perspective.
Currently I'm maybe most interested in what happens to Steemit's rep over the year, and I'm also interested in if people keep posting to Steem to milk Steem and buy Hive with those rewards or not, as many people claim one action or the other is anti or pro Steem, and I see milking Steem or leaving Steem as both pro Hive perhaps. Lots of opinions. Cheers to all getting along well enough and not being censored.

When you leave a company to get a position into another one, you bring with you all the knowledge you learned in the first one. You use that knowledge to get better contract conditions in the new one and help that company grow with all your experience gained from the past. You just forget what the old company is doing with the value you provided while working there, you focus in the future and forget about the past, especially if the past is full of shit.

Let's just focus on growing this great project we are on and let the man enjoy and die with his new toy.

Just look ahead and HIVE!

i agree that we don't have enough evidence that dev365 is owned by stinc but who owns it . a case needs to be made for binance to release the real identity of that account . if we get that and it turns out it is owned by justin sun personally . not the steem inc . could there be a case against him personally ??

I would be pretty surprised if Justin Sun "personally" was involved with any of this. He just gives the orders and hides behinds corporations. This is the standard play for anyone in his position. This guy is the protege of Jack Ma for god's sake.

Also even if he did make a mistake Binance would obviously protect him.
This is a crypto mafia we are talking about.

I fully agree with you on this. Why can't people leave each other alone? Why the need for such constant trolling...?

Some people want to remain in Steem. Just let them. What's wrong with that?

More, some of the whales that want people to leave Steem and join Hive are not curating people who are posting exclusive content at Hive... at the same time they are curating people who are copy pasting from Hive to Steem, without even changing a comma. 🤪

So, whales want people to leave Hive behind... by curating their blatant copy pasting?

... and by ignoring the ones who are being loyal to Hive by posting exclusive content?

What's the logic on that? 🤔

I copy/paste to Steem.
I still have a network there and rewards I don't see why everyone wouldn't do it.

I guess it comes down to that whole US VS THEM attitude, but even if you have that attitude you should be trying to milk Steem for all the value you can... so even then you should be copy/pasting.

Must be an honor-bound mentality. Steem is such a trashpile people refuses to even touch it with a ten foot pole. That's fine too, but obviously the Hive elite is still attacking Steem and they want users to leech all the value they can.

I realize you're trolling a bit, and I like your overall position, but you're wrong about validating it as a tit for tat.

Those 64 people got their assets stolen from them by a centralized governance scam on STEEM.

Basically our whales just lost 6M in assets by theft from a competing DPOS project.

Those funds were intercepted and now it's sort of up to those people to negotiate the release of their own funds, with Bittrex and Steemit.

I thought that was the point of the SEC intervention.
.:.

As far as what you and I are going to do about it -- we ought to just try to make HIVE have so much value that STEEM dies off.

In this way, the value goes higher, and then people can claim back their lost funds in that pathway.

The difficult part isn't about what public opinion is about this thing -- it's about how those people are going to get their assets back -- they are the ones on the line for it.

.:.

Hi @edicted you articulated that extraordinarily well, thanks.

I am not convinced that 'we won'.
If we were to move away from dpos for voting witnesses and gave up the illusion of anonymity and had a one person gets 20 votes, then we will win.

You're leaving out the idea of a Contentious Hard Fork(Chain split/Hive) vs a Non-Contentious Hard Fork(an upgrade).

Hive was not an airdrop; Hive was not free money; Hive was not a "new asset".

HIVE IS THE ORIGINAL CHAIN WITH THE ORIGINAL COMMUNITY.

Hive is obviously and clearly a new asset. It has to start over getting listed on exchanges. It has a different value, even different rules. I have different balances on Steem and Hive, this is obviously, objectively not true.

There was nothing new about Hive. It was clearly a Fork of steem, containing all the information from steem. So the term 'airdrop' wasn't really an airdrop. People just got the same coins they had on the previous chain. Only this time, some accounts were restricted, and that was contentious.

The Steem community also performed a fork, and this time, they did the same thing. Zeroed the accounts of a select group of individuals and moved it to different account. You could say they probably should have changed their name from Steem to something else, say 'Hiver' so it might look different. But you can clearly see the similarity here. A contentious fork too.

To me, both sides have done the same thing to each other. There's nothing more we can do about it.

No. That is objectively wrong. I find it pretty astounding there are actually this many people not understanding this simple concept so let me make it even more simple for anyone else confused.

Ever saved a file on your computer? You know there is a difference between "Save" and "Save As..."

Hive = "Save As..." with some changes, the different balances are not the only change on Hive. There is also a change to how witness voting works. You had one file, now you have 2 files. A NEW FILE. Get it?

Steem's recent HF = "Save" ie no new file, or a non-contentious HF, or an upgrade. Still ONE FILE.

In the first example of Hive, the original file remains, unchanged. So if you had assets there you still have them. You aren't entitled to anything in the NEW FILE.

In Steem's HF, people had assets and they were STOLEN, there is no NEW FILE, the only file was edited. Something people had, they no longer have.

This is seriously not that difficult to understand people, wtf.

"SAVE AS": HF21

"SAVE AS": HF22

"SAVE AS": HF23 (HIVE)

"SAVE AS": HF23 (STEEM)

See what I did there?

No I don't. What's the point you're trying to make?

It has to start over getting listed on exchanges.

You are thinking about this from a legacy economy point of view.

You, like many others, believe Steem is an old asset because the CENTRALIZED EXCHANGES say so and be cause the CORPORATE BRANDING say so. We have all been brainwashed by how things have operated our whole lives. Crypto is different. This is an open-source cooperative economy that NO ONE truly understands, just like the legacy economy at large. There are too many unpredictable variables and emergent dynamics.

I have different balances on Steem and Hive

No, you didn't, unless you were on that shitlist and got your coins sent to @steem.dao. Are you measuring balance in terms of USD? Another laughable situation, and also something that I've been bringing up lately. 26M Steem does not equal $5M. Ned knew this; everyone knows this.

You are thinking about this from a legacy economy point of view.

No, I'm not. I'm thinking of this in a literal, technical, objective point of view.

What is a blockchain?

It's just a database. It's entries of information. It's a ledger, ie the information is only added.

When Hive forked, a NEW database was created and maintained that contained NEW information that exists completely separate and apart from the Steem database. "Save Ae..." = New File = New Database.

Don't take the fact that you don't understand how this works and assume NO ONE understands it. That's a ridiculous thing to say. Obviously people are designing blockchains as we speak so people clearly understand it.

No, you didn't, unless you were on that shitlist and got your coins sent to @steem.dao. Are you measuring balance in terms of USD? Another laughable situation, and also something that I've been bringing up lately. 26M Steem does not equal $5M. Ned knew this; everyone knows this.

Obviously I mean POST fork, which is the proof that there is a new and separate database/asset/blockchain/information.

Seriously don't really get how this is confusing.

Like I keep stating over and over and over again:
You'll see how wrong you are in ten years.
Even Vitalik, who isn't even interested in DPOS, can see this.
When a contentious split happens in DPOS stake from both opposing sides must be nullified.
That is a fact.

Over the next ten years you are going to see this happen again and again and again and again.
Are you going to be the person that says one side is stealing but the other side isn't?
Your ignorance of this situation has been recorded on the blockchain forever.

Trust me, you'll feel better when I finish up this next post explaining how it is theft.
I understand this issue better than you do, and I'm arguing both sides.

I really don't think you do, but feel free to enlighten me. I'm working on a post as well :)

This whole situation is getting insane. I am also surprised how much value HIVE was able to strip out. I figured the chain would be worth 1/10th what STEEM is and not get exchange support.

I remember one of the garbage Bitcoin forks in 2017 took the Satoshi coins for development and I was calling it out on what a joke it was.

We can't go after Justin Sun; we'd have to go after Steemit Incorporated. Guess what? No one gives a shit about Steemit Inc. Justin Sun can dump Steem to zero anytime he wants, claim he got hacked, and declare bankruptcy of Steemit Inc without losing one goddamn dollar.

I was WONDERING about this issue. Including the operating agreement, the purchase agreement, and the LLC of now Steemit.

I didn't understand everything you wrote, but my takeaway is STEEM is the "new" community and token, and a shit token. HIVE is by-and-large the community we have been for 3+ years.

I'm glad I've retained at least some of my holdings, having started to power down 13 weeks ago, today is the final payment. Now I don't have much at risk.

Yep, beyond time to cut the loses.

Short and sweet. 5 stars.

Speaking the words our subconscious keeps screaming at us. Well said.

The TL;DR summary:

  • Steem Soft Fork 22.2 was a contentious code change which (at worst) could have given rise to a complicated civil law suit;
  • Steem Hard Fork 23 was an illegal act which could give rise to civil law suits and criminal investigations started either by authorities on their own, or prompted by victims who had their assets stolen.

The end of this post contains direct links to the exact blocks on the Steem blockchain, every one of these links is also recorded in archive.today. Blockchains may be forever, but only as long as someone runs the code. And running blockchain code is not risk free.

Full post: https://peakd.com/hf23/@brianoflondon/the-unbearable-lightness-of-being-a-hive-witness

Interesting summary.
Personally I think it's more important that we're dealing with the crypto mafia and none of those accounts are ever going to get their money back no matter what so arguing about it is largely pointless.

The weird thing about code and the law is that code is protected by free speech, but running code is not. This is where it get's even weirder with blockchain, because you can replay the node and run all the code without even having a connection to the Internet. The funds were moved on a block in the past, and the current state of the node isn't running illegal code. It is a wholly weird and unique situation that the law has never had to deal with before.

So who's at fault? The witness that signed the block? The other witnesses that allowed that block to become permanent? The centralized entity in the background pulling all the strings?

I don't think people realize that the legal precedents being set are going to have huge unintended overarching consequences. Good thing decentralization is highly resistant to these centralized rulesets.

code is protected by free speech

This is true in America (sort of) but not everywhere. Blockchains are global. The code itself might not be a crime: running it made a crime happen. If I was running witness code which controlled millions of dollars belonging to people I'd never met in any and all countries of the world I'd be fanatically careful about what I ran.

I'm not a lawyer. I've had a completely torrid time with lawyers in Israel on a non-internet business case (finally over - draw, the lawyers won) so my first instinct is to run away from lawyers.

However: I'm trying to make coders understand the implications of what they're doing. Spending $500 on a lawyer to at least give you a hedged opinion that what you're about to run in a hard fork (or even a soft fork) is broadly permissible or at least defensible, seems like a small price to pay compared to block rewards.

Steem Witnesses did SF 22.2 without legal cover as far as I know, it is almost certainly ok, highly defensible and not a crime. I'm not sure what legal cover Justin Sun and the other conspirators had with HF23. Maybe none as well. I find it hard to believe they found a competent lawyer in this field to say HF23 is fine.

So who's at fault? The witness that signed the block?
Yes

The other witnesses that allowed that block to become permanent?
Yes

The centralized entity in the background pulling all the strings?
Yes

A criminal conspiracy. They all needed to take the pre-announce, pre-planned actions. I suspect that Sun, Steemit Inc and the three known human witnesses will all be co-defendants.

And answering something you said elsewhere (which Andrew has also addressed) LLC, LTC, and all other forms of corporate shield go out the window at the first hint of criminality AND they open you up for personal liability of debts owed by the corporation even if that wouldn't ordinarily be allowed. Rule 1 of being a director or owner of a company, don't break the law and don't allow or instruct your staff to break the law.

Sunny boy destroyed steem and with his hive stake it's coming after hive.
Those Ego guys don't care about money. It's about principle.
Run Forest, run.

Posted Using LeoFinance

The difference is that on Steem if you talk bad about Justin you get censored and your steem gets removed. On Hive if you talk bad about Blocktrades you only could get downvoted.

This is fully off topic and has nothing to do with theft or securities fraud.

😂 "This is fully off topic" You sound like a teacher 😂

We won!!!
tenor (1).gif

Well another chapter of the devil's advocate?, I think that you're underestimating @apshamilton's arguments and I can buy you the idea that the most difficult part to prove is the asociation of JS with that account and that he can possibly act behind Steemit inc without risking a lawsuit against him personally.

Anyways the acusation of thief can be proved and the criminal conspiracy too. That could force to Bittrex to send the funds that they have to the legitimate owners. Of course that Hive won but I think that in the meantime some people lost a lot of money.

CZ the owner of Binance has pronunced himself against what happened in Steemit today.

I understand that you see in this a risky way to act mainly because you don't like the lawyers to be implicated here. You would possibly prefer leave things as there are now because most of us won money in the proccess but that isn't egoist when the people that started from the beggining Hive loose their stake in Steemit?.

Doesn't look fair to me and imo we should support them in the attempt to recover their funds, moreso if JS wants to defend himself in a court you could launch him some tomatoes at the entry, only that possibility worths the effort. 😁

I've said what I needed to say, and now I can go back to fully hating on Steem, Steemit, and most importantly Justin Sun.

It will be truly entertaining, interesting, and perhaps even frighting to see how this pans out. I can not stop a tidal wave from crashing. I can only point at it and be like... "Oh shit, run!"

What we could loose anyways?. The funds are already in the limbo and I don't think that Hive would be considered theft or that the blockchain regulation could be more restrictive because of this.

A legal action can be expensive but is nothing that the DAO can't afford.
You wanted to burn the DAO, shit this is well wasted money.

Burning the DAO and spending the DAO are completely different. When you burn the DAO, everyone with stake gains value. When you spend the DAO on lawyers, someone has to pay for those lawyers via buying Hive on the open market.

Although there is a certain poetic justice in using Sun's own funds against him... I'm in :D

Agree we just need to move on.

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Tell it to his face and surely you are doing it with this post. Courage and force to keep on going!

It is theft plain and simple. You can try to explain it away through industry lingo but the law of the land states differently. What occurred is theft and can be prosecuted by law.
The possibility of the people affected to regain their funds via fork was close to zero and Justin used that fact to steal the money.
The judge will see it that way as well.

Oh but they could have run their own version!

While technically they could have, practically that would lead to nothing.

the law of the land

The "land" of a borderless network. You're out of your element.

I've already told you what is going to happen. Steemit will be convicted of securities fraud and theft. Steemit will then dump all their coins and then conveniently be "hacked" and declare bankruptcy. Hive whales will get none of their money back, and the result of this lawsuit is that everyone who believed in Steem will get totally fucked over.

There is no magical victory here.
End of story.

The "land" of a borderless network. You're out of your element.

Laws related to murder and theft are almost universal across the board in the sense of "its wrong", "how its determined", "how its described". And really all that matters is Steemit.inc and Justin Sun being based in Texas US, Justin living in San Fran.

Its the industry lingo that comes second to already established societal norms.

What you wrote here shows a very cryptocentric view of the world. That the rest of the world will adjust to your values, to your rules and your determination of things. When the opposite is what will be happening.

Steemit will be convicted of securities fraud and theft.

Maybe, maybe not. Steem is a security without a doubt, but if it is significant enough to be picked up by the US government, thats another story. The relative niche area crypto operates in is what is keeping a lot of shit that happens in crypto from getting mainstream attention.

There is no magical victory here.
End of story.

Of course there is. We already won. We got HIVE. We got so many fucking eyes on HIVE. We got ourselves listed and every despicable shit Justin Sun does is an opportunity to get more eyes on HIVE.
_I mean its fucked up and it is theft, but do you really think im tweeting about this because im wholly distressed about some guys i dont really know lost some money, most of whom dont even like me.
The magical win is milking the last drop out of this.
You writing this post telling us we cant win is a very strange thing to write.

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yeah I've been struggling to see the difference between our hardfork and theirs. Both are a fork from a certain state of affairs.

We think that Steem HF23 is theft and Hive is not because Steem is an "old asset" and Hive is a "new asset" "airdrop".

False equivalence. Theft is the taking of funds that do not belong. There were no funds taken by Hive, nobody was deprived of property. Hf23 took funds from people on the other hand.

If the value of a crypto is based on layer zero, then Hive is the old asset and Steem is the new asset.

Irrelevant. We aren't discussing why crypto has value or how, we are discussing the Taking of Assets, violations of Property.

You think Steem is the old asset because they kept the same corporate brand name with a completely gutted network that we scooped? I thought it was Sun doing all the mental gymnastics, but god damn we are getting close to his level.

You seem to think that people are free to plunder as they can, that property rights are nothing next to the minus 1000000000 retardo layer uber that is Value. Say value, that is a free pass to avoid discussing how propriety rights were violated in the creation of hive, just like funds have been stolen recently on Steem. Mental Gymnastics? Bro, all I have to do is say property rights and your asshole will surely suck your head completely in as you avoid making any kind of acknowledgement regarding that Idea.

Now we want to make the claim that the exact thing that Hive just did is theft? Are we stupid?

You, retardoespecialy, stupidtothemax, I mean you are so dumb, so brain dead uncreative in thought, so go damn lost in the sauce, that you cannot see that you're the only one on a warpath to convince everyone that give stole people's funds, nobody else i know of actually believes that IMBECILIC, idiotic nonthought nonsense, only you. You truly, not "devil's advocate" in the least, believe that what hive did is Theft, and you are stupid. So stupid indeed that you actually think your idiotic sentence makes sense, you actually think that "we" are so stupid for calling theft as we see it, because you think we are thieves ourselves, that we stole from Steem.

Fuck you are Retarded. I rarely remark on one's capacity to stupefy, but when you steal the kake with that dominance, you earn it.

Blah blah blah.
Tilt at the windmills more.
This is a series of three different posts.
Try reading them all first before you continue making a fool of yourself.

Look at how much I get paid to write these arguments.
I don't have to actually believe it to write it.

Are you frustrated because I said that Theft Is Theft, that property rights have been violated and that I don't give a fuck about your three part treatise in that regard? Those ain't windmills, those aren't even real contentions, but don't let me deflate your huge sense of intelligence, keep on puffing it up, look at the zero layer value that you're getting.

You're too late to the party.
I've already had this conversation a dozen times.
Too little, too late; you bring nothing to the table.
Try again.

Read the post about why I explain it is theft and get back to me.